Mandela statue, right or wrong?

semi-pro waster said:
I'm seeing a bit of a contradiction here, not into idol worship yet wanting to follow the teachings of Buddha or Jesus (pretty much the definition of the first idol). I do quite agree though, one should never fully trust someone who puts themselves forward as a leader or those who claim to report the news. But....
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Following teachings isn't quite the same as idol worshop. I do belive Jesus and the Buddha were genuine lights for *ALL* of humanity. Nelson Mandela isn't, he's a political activist with political goals yet the liberal elite would have us believe he's a messiah.

semi-pro waster said:
In fairness, religion was a useful method fo controlling the masses, it is less useful now but churches/religions still exist extolling the virtues of the above figures (and more) so I'd say they are still fairly well represented in the "they're great" camp and the leader of the USA (and ex-PM of GB) are both noted as committed Christians.
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Well the teaching of christ are actualy very simple and can wrote down in a few paragraphs. The church hevaily distorted them as means of getting power and controlling the masses. Chances are if Jesus came back he'd denounce the organised church that espouse him and the political establishment. This is pretty much what he did when he was alive and he got crucified as punishment.
 
magick said:
Following teachings isn't quite the same as idol worshop. I do belive Jesus and the Buddha were genuine lights for *ALL* of humanity.
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Perhaps and perhaps not but as you say the teachings got somewhat inevitably corrupted.

magick said:
Nelson Mandela isn't, he's a political activist with political goals yet the liberal elite would have us believe he's a messiah.
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Simply because he is a political activist does not mean that what he did was not the right thing although agreed he is not a messiah. And now you've put the phrase "messiah" into my head I can't help but think of Monty Pythons Life Of Brian. :D Would the liberal elite also be known as the PCLE? If so then you needn't worry, pretty much all those tagged as such have been banned from OcUK anyway. :)
 
wohoo said:
i wonder how many atrocities were commited whilst furthering the British Empire?
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Hmm i wonder that as well.

Semi-Pro waster said:
But he was the figurehead or at least the most recognisable representation of the fight against apartheid to the layman, to put it another way - without searching can you name any more influential figures in the process (and just to put a further caveat, who would be recognised by the general public of the UK)?

Sometimes good men do bad things in the cause of what they believe in and from what I can tell his record as PM was pretty near exemplary, he is/was also held in high regard for his diplomacy. I'm not sure whether he does or doesn't 'deserve' a statue, I simply don't know enough about it to say for certain but I'd be happy to concede that wiser people than me have considered it and seem to think he does.
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Took the words out of my mouth, more or less what i was about to say myself:).
 
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couldnt care less..the local council there probably ***** more on their councillors expenses in a year...
 
Ex-RoNiN said:
If you want to call Mandela a terrorist, what do you call Churchill for using Chemical Weapons in Iraq?
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... or for sanctioning the bombing of Dresden and Hamburg - More bombs dropped in one night on these cities than on the UK throughout the entire Blitz, and some estimates of more deaths than the dropping of the nuclear bombs. Neither cities were military targets.

People generally ignore Churchills completely evil side, even though it showed its ugly head often throughout his political career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

The firebombing consisted, of the by-then standard methods,[18][19] of dropping large amounts of high-explosive to blow off the roofs to expose the timbers within buildings, followed by incendiary devices (fire-sticks) to ignite them and then more high-explosives to hamper the efforts of the fire services. The consequences of these standard methods were particularly effective in Dresden: the bombings eventually created a self-sustaining firestorm with temperatures peaking at over 1500°C (2700°F). After a wide area caught fire, the air above the bombed area became extremely hot and rose rapidly. Cold air then rushed in at ground level from outside, and people were sucked into the fire.
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penski said:
One could also argue that 9/11 was needed to end US trade sanctions on Iraq...

Terrorism is terrorism. The cause never justifies the means.

*n
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Agreed, regardless of how noble the aims are, they are made less so by any evils done it their name. Yes it was good he ended Apartheid, but it was bad how he did it.

Regardless, I see the statue as a massive waste of money that could have been better spent on the citizens of this country.
 
The British jailed Éamon de Valera and setanced him to death for his involvment in the 1916 Rising. He was saved partly due to his American citizenship.

He later became Irish President.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
 
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Morlan said:
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
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Yes, yes, blah, blah, we've all heard it before. It's getting tiring.

But I refuse to respect anyone who resorts to violence in an attempt to convince others of their ideals.

*n
 
penski said:
Yes, yes, blah, blah, we've all heard it before. It's getting tiring.

But I refuse to respect anyone who resorts to violence in an attempt to convince others of their ideals.

*n
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He wasn't trying to "convince others of their ideals", he was fighting against a totalitarian government that was through active promotion of racism keeping his people out of society. He wanted freedom, you don't get freedom without fighting for it.
 
@if ®afiq said:
Agreed, regardless of how noble the aims are, they are made less so by any evils done it their name. Yes it was good he ended Apartheid, but it was bad how he did it.

Regardless, I see the statue as a massive waste of money that could have been better spent on the citizens of this country.
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One could argue that the effect that a lack of positive black role models in the UK is having on teenagers, could be helped by such a gesture?
 
penski said:
Gandhi did.

*n
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That's 1 out of 2 people (the Buddhist guy being the other) that have not used violence in an uprising. In any case, Gandhi was not the only factor putting the Empire under pressure, there were many others that were fighting the Empire actively (Mandhar something or other in the 19th century for one) and during WW2 Churchill had to promise independence for Freedom in return for Indian soldiers serving in the war. So whether Gandhi actually did win freedom all by himself, is actually questionable (not saying that hes not a great statesman tho).

Anyway, out of all the uprisings that have been, this is a very low number. Don't forget 1776, btw.
 
penski said:
Gandhi did.

*n
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Excellent point. The white minority depended on the black majority to work for them. Civil disobedience would have hurt them extremley bad economically, and could have forced their hand - but requires far more in terms of leadership than the violent alternative of terrorism.

Do you have an issue with using violence per se or just the terrorism part?

I conceede that there are times when the yoke of tyranny is so tight that violence is the only answer, but that does not mean terrorism.
 
@if ®afiq said:
Excellent point. The white minority depended on the black majority to work for them. Civil disobedience would have hurt them extremley bad economically, and could have forced their hand - but requires far more in terms of leadership than the violent alternative of terrorism.
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Bingo.

Do you have an issue with using violence per se or just the terrorism part?
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I've always seen a fist as the last resort of an unintelligent man.

*n
 
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