English Football is over run with forieng players

The total stats where in the papers not long ago for the domestic top flight leagues and Italy France and germany where miles lower than England.
 
Its no coincidence that the english and spanish leagues are flooded with foreigners yet both teams underachieve.

Italy, Germany and France have much lower rates.
Where did those three teams come in the last Euros anyway? Oh, that's right, only Italy made it past the group stages, and they went out in the next round!

In fairness, yes, the last WC they all did well, but that tournament was a ****fest of dull extra time wins and penalty shootouts after the group stages. England could quite concievably have made it to the final, and not because they were any good.

All the Brazilians and Argentinians in the national team play elsewere.

Most top French players (and a fair few Germans) play outside of their own leagues. Likewise the Portugese, the Dutch, the Czechs and the Greeks.

Last nights england wouldn't finish in the top half of the premier league.
So because English players are rubbish, it's other players faults? I really don't get that.

If we going to apply strange logic, I'd prefer to go for the simpler calculation:
English players play far worse for their country than their club side -> The foreign players around them help them do better -> English players are actually largely rubbish and get carried by their more technically skilled foreign team mates.

I would like to see a foreigner rule bought back in.
And when that does nothing, who do we blame next? Foreign managers? The FA? Sky TV? Gordon Brown?
 
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Well that saved me a power of typing, cheers;)


One of the problems with English players is the hype and money that is pumped into the EPL. It seems that the English NT has developed a hubris mentality because they are among the best paid players in the 'richest leage in europe'.

All the money in the world can't buy you endeavour, hunger or team spirit. The EPL is a good league but its not as good as the SKY-sponsored razzmatazz would have you believe.

The national team is made up of narcissists and overpaid, mediocre players, the FA is full of hooray-henrys who are lurching from one calamity to another. Sacking the manager aint going to fix anything.
 
and france is awash with foreigners. most french national players do not play in france... or at least the better ones anyway..

so what can we conclude from that?

That the French league is weaker so the top players move away to play for top clubs?
 
I'm of the opinion that the amount of foreigners in the prem makes no difference to the England team. I can see the Prem losing a lot of interest from overseas if the ruling for foreigners is brought in and i actually think it will have a detrimental effect on the England team.
 
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And when that does nothing, who do we blame next? Foreign managers? The FA? Sky TV? Gordon Brown?

This isn't about blame.. it's about putting right what is wrong that is otherwise seriously undermining the national and domestic game in England.

The intoduction of more English players at top flight football either here or abroad has to be a good thing if we are to succeed but English players at all levels need to understand that they are not the world class players they think they are.

I'm of the opinion that the amount of foreigners in the prem makes no difference to the England team. I can see the Prem losing a lot of interest from overseas if the ruling for foreigners is brought in and i actually think it will have a detrimental effect on the England team.

This would be true if we had the presence of English players abroad.. but we don't. English players are too expensive and over rated.
 
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What's seriously undermining the domestic game in England is the ****-poor training and youth systems we have established. Too much reliance on energy and "heart" than technical ability and skill. Hence our national team becomes a team of cloggers and long ball punters.

You don't get English players playing top flight football by shoehorning them undeservedly into squads. You do it by making them good enough to deserve those places. The very fact that people now seem to think that only CL level players will be good enough says to me that the lower Prem and Championship is at such a rubbish level of football to do enough, and shouldn't that be largely the fault of all the English players who play down there?

If the leagues as a whole were played with better skill and ability, it would improve the entire country tenfold. Far more than pushing a handful of players into the top clubs would ever do.
 
If the leagues as a whole were played with better skill and ability, it would improve the entire country tenfold. Far more than pushing a handful of players into the top clubs would ever do.

thing is we try to keep the skil level down through use of thuggery.

Ronaldo is a prime example of what one can do with some technical ability and skill.

unfortunately the way we have learnt to cope with that in england is the chop 'em down mentality, instead of trying to develop teams with many technical and skilled players... shame really..
 
one of our main problems is poor managers, like having a allerdyce just wanting to promote that, hack and slash then the odd long ball mentality.

we need better managers overall to make better clubs in general. the problem is we have a set number of managers and aren't really giving other managers a chance. unless you were a high profile footballer then you have little chance of going on to be a manager. it doesn't help that, i dunno, you get a even mourinho(who i hate), wenger, fergie and a bunch of others, they just seem on a different level of inteligence to the likes of allerdyce, redknapp(is there a player, is he overpriced, when can we make the deal...), curbishley, pardew, they just play mostly relatively pap football and none of them are capable of making a team in the wenger, fergie, capello, hiddink style at all.

if you can't play, coach, often is very accurate, wenger wasn't great, neither were a lot of managers. more managers need a chance i guess, and we need to get some more inteligent more qualified english managers into the premiership.


foreign players have absolutely nothing at all to do with englands current predicament. the only logic is the best english players playing with the best players in the world week in week out can not fail to help them. the players simply, on average, aren't as good as with other countries, thats not to say we don't have enough english players, just the pool that can be picked isn't as big as some other countries have, but thats simply down to poor coaching throughout all levels in the english game. we fix that, and more will play first team and we get a bigger pool of players to choose the national side from who are actually worthy of being in the team.

changing coaching or not, getting rid of a large number of the better foreign players will without question decrease the quality of opposition that the top english players play against, they simply won't be as good, and younger players won't improve as much as they would if it stays as is.


technical ability isn't where i think our coaching problems lie, its the mentality of football, the game itself we aren't teaching. showing kids hours and hours a week of game footage and teaching kids what to do and what not to do.

the best football in the world is often the most simple, and yet the nicest to watch. a simple pass is a far easier method to get through a defence than to run around them, but knowing where to pass the ball isn't a "skill" its a knowledge, an ability to read the game, to make the right decisions, thats whats without question lacking in the english game.

fabregas , he's shown he can do little flicks, and back heels and is apparently a great finisher. but his best football is simply knowing where the challenge is coming from and rolling away from it. making the right call about where to pass, and the right timing for tackles, passes, crosses, shots. most of his football is fairly simple but with absolute perfect timing and vision, awareness of what the players around him, his and the opposition is doing. that is what we need to teach young kids. most young kids think football is all about being joe cole, we have competitions on tv for who can do the best flicks and tricks, but put any on a pitch and they can't play to save their lives. they see joe cole doing tricks and put all their effort into learning tricks, rather than learning the game itself.


for all ronaldo's tricks and skills, his single best ability is making simple but perfectly timed runs into the box for a often fairly simple finish. he simple knows WHEN and WHERE to run, running isn't a huge skill, running at the perfect time IS. he crosses at the right time and passes at the right time.

in his first year he was much like joe cole, nice to watch but frustrating because he wasn't making the best decisions, but fergie is smart, he taught him brilliantly. the tricks didn't change, but his timing and decision making went from average to brilliant and thats what changed his game from fairly good to world class.
 
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Complete and utter nonsense. Lets take out the last 15 years and go back to 1992-1993 when these big bad foreign players weren't around. The quality of the league was poor, the team head and shoulders above all (Man Utd) were struggling in the CL. England finished bottom of their Euro 92 group and didn't qualify for WC94. QF of WC86, knocked out of group stages Euro 88 and a SF in WC90 so apart from WC90 England didn't exactly do that well then.

Lets go back even further between 1977-1984 English clubs won 7 out 8 European cups so that means the quality of the league was actually quite good. Now lets look at the national team, they won nothing and did nothing of note around this time as well. Failed to qualify for two world cups in the seventies and failed to qualify for WC82 IIRC.

Noticing a trend yet? England didn't do much when the foreign players were here and not much when they weren't around. England have always been an average national team, one world cup win on home soil with the best player in the world injured for Brazil won't change that fact. I'm gonna be called anti-English like I usually am when I criticise England but until people realise this and accept reality this country's national team will not move forward, blame McLaren, blame Barwick, blame Wenger etc etc. How about the people who run the game actually completely changing this game from grass root level upwards instead of looking for people to blame and saving their own back. Don't think infront of you feet, look long term and by changing the way the players are taught football will reap rewards in the next 5-10 years. Look at how Clairefontaine changed French football, within 12 years of that system they had won the WC and European cup. Technically yesterday Croatia looked so much better it was embarrassing at times. Englands CM looked like pub players compared to them, Lampard and Gerrard are excellent at their clubs but maybe it is the foreign players by their side who are helping them play like that? Look at the Barca system and look at players like Xavi, Iniesta and Fabregas, technically they are easily superior to English CMs and that is because that side of their game is drilled into their heads at an early age. Look at Fabregas some people called him a softy and how he wouldn't be physically up to it but when you hit 20 and above you will naturally get stronger anyway. The technical side to the youngsters just isn't good enough and you can remove every foreign player in this country and I will guarantee England will do **** all, the cream always rises to the top and the reason English clubs are looking elsewhere is because of the FA youth system and because the players that are being produced just aren't good enough. The foreign players in this country if anything will raise the level of quality of English footballers and all that will happen

But this is the easy solution to the problem so I can see why it has support, quick fix solutions that don't work is sometimes what this country specialises in.....
 
its got nothing to do with the fact that french, spanish, italian, german, beligian, dutch and well, all the rest of the teams that weren't winning decided to invest heavily in youth coaching and changing the way they ran their football programs completely from top to bottom, no its not that, and england were caught with their head in the sand, thinking they were great and untouchable and there was no need for change whatsoever. so not only did we get a generation of players since the "glory" days who were coached and simply weren't as good, all the players since then have been in worse coaching programs than most across europe, and also we have managers who never went through decent coaching programs physically themselves, and so can't bring that level of coaching to their clubs now.

Even "most" of the good footballing people in our country realise the problem is in coaching, i simply highlighted the difference in coaching, fabregas was brought through a program teaching him THE GAME and how to be most effective and was taught the simple/beautiful game, where our youngsters are convinced that being able to do a stepover is the key to being the best in our league.

we are full of people who can do tricks, and very few who read the game well. if you look at englands top players, gerrard, lampard, owen, shearer, lineker they were good at reading the game, they aren't full of tricks. go to a youth team and see how they are being coached, they are running around like a pack of disorganised pratt's seeing who can do the better stepover.

our country has convinced itself we aren't as good at the technical play as other countries. but personally, i fail to see germany, italy, spain, portugal, brazil really play a "technical" side. yes portugal, brazil have their overly good technical players, but most of the portugal side isn't doing stepovers, and ronaldo's strength isn't the stepovers, its the simple inteligent runs into the box.

we as a country are going to fail, until we realise its the simple game, not the technical stuff to focus on. you can hit the ball 60 yards and hit the blade of grass you were aiming for, but if you can't read the game no ones going to be there when you do.


EDIT:_ wrote half the post based on reading the first half of the last post, which apparently wasn't a good idea :p i agree somewhat with most of what he said, its all about the coaching in general, but not completely that. some players are simply good enough that they learn the game very well anyway. but i still believe its got nothing to do with players being technically better. i think eduardo's run, turning the right way and pretty much the perfect pass was nothing but simple idea with perfect execution. lescott made a howler, campbell did what he was supposed to do, he moved across to cover the run of eduardo, at which point lescott should have run full speed to plug the whole, which he completely failed to do. there wasn't an offside trap play, when all the defenders are backpeddling you can't play the offside trap. whoever was making the run being made of the other striker should have got along side and between him and the ball, but failed. lescott would have intercepted the pass, if he had plugged the gap and not got drawn into the ball when eduardo was marked by 3 players and going nowhere. bridge for the only point in the game remains blameless, had eduardo continued his run without cutting inside, bridge was where he needed to be, and had lescott + whoever was running with bobo or whatever his name is covered the run it was simple. but the thing here is the move was incredibly simple from croatia, anyone can do that, the timing of the run, the pass, the not panicking and the simple finish, thats something england coaching by and large can't produce, in quantity that other countries can.
 
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Waves at cheets64:)
Manchester Untd:

Van der Sar (Kuszczak 46), Simpson, Vidic, Pique (Evans 72), Evra, Ronaldo, Carrick, Nani, Fletcher, Rooney, Tevez (Saha 67).


and that's me sussed:p


I kinda agree howevr this isnt a true representaion of man utd.

we have a lot of english players that did not play that game due to it not being important to us.

Brown / Carrick / Hargreaves / Scholes / Ferdinand / Eagles for a start and thats just english if you take it as the UK then Giggs / O'shea / (plus evans)
fletcher etc.

Man Utd imho have one of the strongest home nation as it were sides.
 
I kinda agree howevr this isnt a true representaion of man utd.

we have a lot of english players that did not play that game due to it not being important to us.

Brown / Carrick / Hargreaves / Scholes / Ferdinand / Eagles for a start and thats just english if you take it as the UK then Giggs / O'shea / (plus evans)
fletcher etc.

Man Utd imho have one of the strongest home nation as it were sides.

Point aside (kind of) I've never really understood why homenations ever really came into. We don't have a GB or UK football team, it's England only. The whole discussion is about the lack of English players..
 
Point aside (kind of) I've never really understood why homenations ever really came into. We don't have a GB or UK football team, it's England only. The whole discussion is about the lack of English players..

yes but a stupid idea trying to create a media frenzy behind a idea that has no chance of helping at all doesn't need logic behind it. ;)

its as simple as this, if coaching was better, and there were better english players there would be 222 starting english players in the premier league. there isn't that many world class english players, there aren't that many world class brazillians, or that many iti's, spanish players, dutch. so whats the big deal. we need to take the top 50, which is more than enough and more than what there is now at premiership clubs and make them better players, not make more, make that top 50 better. that would be improved coaching, theres no question that is the ONLY fix.
 
My friend made a very good point today regarding foreign players in the English League.

"We had hardly any foreign players in the 70's but we were crap then."
 
Regardless of how many foreigners play in our leagues, England has become the home of Foreign investment for profit. We were already playing more games per season than any other National league and the Group Stage of the Champions League only adds to this folly.

If we were to "re-introduce" British players into the Premiership, then we would have a ten year cycle of poorly performing British sides before we could again attain E£uropean glories........now name me a Club, or a set of supporters in the Premiership, who would happily trade igmony for the next ten years to achieve that??....let alone the financial cost\lack of profits to "Investors".

Until Football is returned to the fan, players are happy to earn 10% of what they are paid today just to have the pleasure of playing, and football clubs do not have a PLC after their name, then the situation will never improve.

It used to be about the passion.....now it's just about the Profit!!
 
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We could have easily won the game with better selection (from those who were fit and able to play)

At this level you need CL football experience - Croatia individually are only reasonable (possibly UEFA Cup standard at best) but as a TEAM they play for each other and really help colleagues out and that is what won the game , compared to most of the time WE get in the way of one another and play for indicidual glory (and too arrogant to think we can lose until its too late)!!!

Croatia came for a fight and we werent ready - simple as that

As for the League - We need to attract foreign players to the league because while CL football is good experience, its the week in week out of facing the Drogba's, Van Persie's Ronaldo's and beating Cech, VDS Almunia that really improves our players

If you limit squad depth's and limit number of foreign players, you are really just throwing regular CL appearances out of the window (especially latter stages) becaue teams just wont be good enough

The FA should be giving the majority of the cash to the lower clubs and youth setups around the country for clubhouses, equipment etc rather than the people who already have enough cash already
 
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