English Football is over run with forieng players

did you really just say that beating "Almunia that really improves our players"???

no you're right, its easy to beat almunia, he's let in 30 or 40 goals already this season :rolleyes:


beating almunia involves beating gallas, toure, sagna and clichy, if you think beating upson, spectre, hoyte and, errm, trying to think of another much lower level(so far) defender, is going to be harder well.... whatever.

as i said, theres more than enough space for 50 english players in the league as is, theres certainly more than enough english players playing first team for 2 english teams. the problem isn't that we need more, we need the current english players in the premier league to be better. the players in the championship who would move straight into premierleague teams if the rules came in already have proven they aren't good enough. many of the best championship english players have already been into the premiership several times and proven repeatedly over and over again they aren't good enough.

how is moving these players, we've already witnessed from them playing at that level before, going to help england?
 
did you really just say that beating "Almunia that really improves our players"???

Ironic really when you think about it as he's far better than any English keeper atm.

He's possibly a candidate for the England No. 1 - he just needs to be slightly co-erced into it. (He's never played for spain and has been here for longer than 3 years). Though saying that, the last foreigner that had anything to do with the England football team was treated like crap, don't know why Alumunia would want to switch over really. (Think Pietersen as well, (different sport I know but point still stands)).
 
Keane Blames England Egos

Sunderland manager Roy Keane has accused England's players of allowing their egos to get in the way of success as a team.

The 36-year-old former Republic of Ireland captain, who famously missed the 2002 World Cup finals in the Far East after a major bust-up with then manager Mick McCarthy, has more than once voiced his opinions about the current crop of Barclays Premier League stars.

Keane fears some are more interested in their pay packets, fast cars and WAGS than winning trophies and playing international football, and he believes England's demise is symptomatic of that.

As the post-mortem which saw England boss Steve McClaren lose his job in the wake of last night's 3-2 defeat by Croatia got underway, Keane insisted England have the players to compete, but blamed some of the egos within the camp for their failure to qualify.

He said: "You look at the talent and the technique of the players, and England have that - they have that in abundance.

"To say Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard and Wayne Rooney are not as talented and technical as the other players is wrong.

"But I do believe there are too many egos about in the England set-up and that has cost them dear."

Asked if he feels current players lack the hunger to succeed at international level, he said: "Without a doubt, and I believe you could see that with England.

"The players could talk all day and say, 'No', but you judge them by their actions.

"With the top players nowadays, the clubs would be the priority, without a doubt.

"I have to be careful about what I say about international football, but in the modern day, clubs will be the priority.

"I am sure they do love playing for their countries, but I watched some of them being interviewed after the game and you could see in their attitude, players are losing the love of playing for their countries.

"There is only Scotland where they all seem to want to turn up."

However, Keane admitted his surprise at the ferocity of the reaction to England's exit and told the nation to take it on the chin.

He said: "Everyone seems to be panicking. They are nearly a good team. The England players are quality players.

"There is a fine line. You can analyse this and analyse that, but there is a big danger of over-analysing things.

"That may sound ridiculous, but they haven't qualified and they will get over it. They didn't qualify in '94. That's life.

"You look at the English players they have got at this moment in time and they are good enough.

"It is not a case of everyone saying they are not good enough - but good players don't make good teams.

"Everyone needs to keep their heads. Everyone is panicking.

"Scotland haven't qualified, Northern Ireland haven't qualified, the Republic haven't qualified, Wales haven't qualified."

However, Keane did have sympathy for McClaren, with whom the Irishman worked during his time as Sir Alex Ferguson's number two at Manchester United.

He said: "He's an absolutely fantastic coach.

"I didn't play under him as a manager, and there's big difference between coach and manager.

"But if you don't qualify for a major tournament, you are going to suffer the consequences.

"As an Irishman, I am not going to lose too much sleep over it. You always hope the home nations will qualify and for none to qualify is major shock.

"The manager takes the brunt, but I believe players have to take the responsibility. If you look at the talent they have got, it is unbelievable they have not qualified.

"I have sympathy with every manager out there, especially if you are the manager of a national team.

"If you are not doing well, you have the whole country on the your back.

"But Steve, no doubt, is a quality coach and he will bounce back from that."
Afraid that I have to agree with this. :)

Foreigners or no foreigners, England still don't win anything. I just think that having too many foreign players in league is just another rubbish excuse. There were not many foreigners in Premier league in 1994 from what I can remember, yet England had failed to qualify for USA World Cup!
 
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You just need a manager with some balls that is not afraid to pick players from the lesser teams in the EPL. Mclaren just picks the big guns who he knows can play well for their club. These players may not be as good as some you are leaving out individually but as a team they may be 2-3 times better.
 
Waves at cheets64:) Actually there were four of last Saturday's team against Italy who play in the EPL

Scotland's team against Itlay last Saturday:

Gordon, Hutton, Weir, McManus, Naysmith, Brown (Miller 74), Fletcher, Hartley, Ferguson, McCulloch (Boyd 90), McFadden

Only one of those (Fletcher) is playing for a top team and even then is not a regular starter. Miller plays for Derby, McFadden can't get a game - enough said.

Now here's an interesting one, at the last round of Champions' LEague games here were the teams:

Rangers:

McGregor, Hutton, Cuellar, Weir, Papac, Hemdani, Beasley (Novo 69), Ferguson, Adam (Darcheville 62), McCulloch, Cousin (Naismith 78)

7 Scots

Celtic:

Boruc, Naylor, Caldwell, Kennedy, McManus, Scott Brown (Sno 89), Hartley, Jarosik (Donati 66), McGeady, Vennegoor of Hesselink (Killen 66), McDonald

5 Scots

Manchester Untd:

Van der Sar (Kuszczak 46), Simpson, Vidic, Pique (Evans 72), Evra, Ronaldo, Carrick, Nani, Fletcher, Rooney, Tevez (Saha 67).

3 Englanders?

Arsenal:

Almunia, Diarra, Gallas, Song Billong, Clichy, Walcott, Silva, Denilson, Diaby, Eduardo (Eboue 81), Bendtner (Adebayor 77).

1 Englander?

Liverpool:

Reina, Aurelio (Babel 63), Hyypia, Carragher, Arbeloa, Riise, Mascherano, Gerrard (Lucas 72), Benayoun, Voronin (Kewell 72), Crouch.

3 Englanders?

Chelsea:

Cech (Cudicini 46), Belletti (Obi 64), Alex, Carvalho, Bridge, Essien, Makelele, Lampard, Joe Cole, Malouda (Wright-Phillips 78), Drogba

3 Englanders?

So there we have it. 12 Scottish players (and only one of them in EPL) and 10 English players. This despite there being twice as many EPL sides in the competition than SPL sides.

Now, my point is this (please don't assume that all Scots are here just to have a go at you, it's not the case) - and you probably know this already - there are too many foreigners in your top clubs. The Scotland team has benefitted from having so many players involved in CL games playing against teams like Barcelona, Milan, Lyon, Stuttgart and so on. SPL has far more Scotish players than say seven years ago because there's no big money to pay the foreigners, many of whom were crap anyway and only looking for a Scottish club because they weren't good enough for the EPL.

and that's me sussed:p

Great post.
 
If English players aren't in the Premiership, where the hell are they? At least most of the English national team play in England! Almost the entire French national team plays abroad, we still qualified :p
 
its what england do, ignore the real problem and make up another one, fix the made up problem, feel all happy about it and ignore the fact the real problem is still there. 4 years later, same problem is there, think up another stupid excuse as to why we have a problem, again fix made up problem, still no luck. its always easier to pass the buck and make a scapegoat, but it never fixes anything.

can no one see the simpleness that is, of all the clubs for instance our midfielders come from, they all essentially play the same damn role, but it works because at their club they have 3 players playing differently to compliment their skills. lampard plays with well, joe cole who clearly wants to be a central midfielder, a winger and possibly the worlds best defensive midfielder. gerrard plays with two wingers and much more defensive midfielder in alonso, or sissoko, the midfield dynamic fouler/defensive midfielder.

in cole and SWP we have players that both prefer to cut in and run into the box and shoot, SWP became popular because at city he constantly ran into the box and shot and scored a few. we play without a real defensive midfielder, without natural wingers(to a degree, beckham is, though has moved infield at real madrid, not a clue where he plays at galaxy, when and if he plays).

more than anything the defense was too poor for words, injuries are one thing, bringing bridge back in was beyond ridiculous. that might have been the worst performance i've seen anyone give for england since i've been alive.(that i remember) only missing his shot that beautifullly looped over..... carson.... saved him a lifetime of shame.

we really do have a lot of quality, but we pick the wrong team. i don't rate hargreaves, i'm not completely sure on carrick, he's defensive-ish, but he's not really a gilberto/makelele, he gets forward a lot, hit a bunch of nice goals last year. i'm not really sure if he is even classes as a defensive midfielder. maybe he's the answer. but as i've said elsewhere, our problem is all our kids training now want to learn the skills like joe cole, rather than the basics of positioning, vision, anticipation , tackling and tracking back that are needed for the DM position, we're all about the glory and, our current players seem to all want to get the goal rather than setup the goal. thats englands biggest problem.
 
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11979_2899637,00.html

Quality rant there, saw the interview and he was spot on. Problem is it will fall on deaf ears and the FA won't do anything about it. Brings up an interesting point about the inquiry they are gonna hold, they are gonna do it themselves and pay themselves for doing it.

hmm dont worry Ben Foster will be back from Injury eventually...

What exactly has he done to prove he is the best English goalie around? He has made big mistakes for Watford as well, didn't Robinson score from a long range freekick against Foster? Completely unproven at the top level.
 
I'm sorry to be a bit off topic here but Craig Johnston's main point seems to be improving the technical ability of the players at the lowest levels. I don't see how the FA can force those kids to improve their technical ability. How the kids are coached is down to the people coaching them. It's not like the FA are forcing the kids to learn the long ball game. If its the clubs teaching them that then its up to the clubs to change.

It seems a lot of people assume the FA == Premier League/Football League, they are not the same thing. The FA, Premier League and the Football League are all separate organisations. The FA is I believe the richest FA (they're getting £425M for next 4 yr deal) but its a drop in the ocean compared to the premier league (they got roughly £2.7 billion for last 4 year deal). The FA also has to spread that money around whereas the premier league money rarely leaves the premier league.

The FA have no control over who is picked, how those players are coached or what clubs they play for. They already try and encourage grass roots level football by providing funding for teams. They can't control a clubs academy and who they have in them or how they are coached.

The FA is responsible for the appointment of the management of the England men's and women's national teams (all levels) and the organisation of the FA Cup. They cocked up the first part.
 
I dont think the foreign player should be bought back as IMO its far too crude and i think we should be positively encouraging money + players to the EPL. I think this problem would best be helped by having clubs have to spend a minimum % of their income (not profit, so big buying sprees/shareholder bonuses..etc dont affect it) towards youth training/academies. This allows the money from having top level players in our teams to filter down to the grass levels and train the next generation of players.

As for making these players more technical, there isnt much you can do apart from encourage youth coaches to teach that style of football.
 
I'm sorry to be a bit off topic here but Craig Johnston's main point seems to be improving the technical ability of the players at the lowest levels. I don't see how the FA can force those kids to improve their technical ability. How the kids are coached is down to the people coaching them. It's not like the FA are forcing the kids to learn the long ball game. If its the clubs teaching them that then its up to the clubs to change.

It seems a lot of people assume the FA == Premier League/Football League, they are not the same thing. The FA, Premier League and the Football League are all separate organisations. The FA is I believe the richest FA (they're getting £425M for next 4 yr deal) but its a drop in the ocean compared to the premier league (they got roughly £2.7 billion for last 4 year deal). The FA also has to spread that money around whereas the premier league money rarely leaves the premier league.

The FA have no control over who is picked, how those players are coached or what clubs they play for. They already try and encourage grass roots level football by providing funding for teams. They can't control a clubs academy and who they have in them or how they are coached.

The FA is responsible for the appointment of the management of the England men's and women's national teams (all levels) and the organisation of the FA Cup. They cocked up the first part.

I think you are missing the point mate, the FA are responsible for how the youth kids are trained and how the coaches are trained in doing their job. They also set out guidelines that the clubs must follow, like the famous 90mins rule. They are hugely responsible for overseeing the development of kids in this country and when the technical skills all over the country of young players aren't upto scratch then the FA need to look at what is wrong. Problem is there needs to be a lot of work done but the FA won't do this as it will require hard and firm decisions to me made and the FA always look for the easy route.
 
Foreign players aren't the problem.

The fact is that the players are simply not good enough! Look at the difference between what they did when they had the ball compared to what Croatia did when they had the ball. England booted it, Croatia passed it. Tactically and technically England are second rate. You can blame the manager all day every day and argue over his choices, but he has no control over the quality of the players being produced. There must be something wrong with the way they are being coached and developed.

This has been the same for years. That Croatia game reminded me of a game in Keegan's reign in The European Championship when England lost 2:1 to Romania. Same thing again, technically and tactically second rate.

Unfortunately, i doubt if things will ever improve because the so called pundits, the press and the fans seem unable to accept the facts and recognise what their eyes tell them.
 
i don't rate hargreaves, i'm not completely sure on carrick, he's defensive-ish, but he's not really a gilberto/makelele, he gets forward a lot, hit a bunch of nice goals last year. i'm not really sure if he is even classes as a defensive midfielder. maybe he's the answer.

Either of them are better than Barry (and not wasting Lampard -for what he is worth, and Gerrard in a role that doesnt really suit their style at all)

Its quite funny how no-one ever rates OH and yet he pretty succussfully had a major part in stopping Arsenal playing on their own patch - one of the few teams to actually do that (and when he wast completely fit)
 
It's everything to do with foreigners, and hype.

The Premiership has a number of extremely good foreign players. These players help make their team mates look quite a bit better than they really are. The less capable foreigners, picking up undeserved salaries, simply push out your home grown talent and leave them unable to develop to be top quality players. Yes, you'll always get one or two coming through, but that's the problem, you've only really got one or two, and it showed last night. You can blame injuries if you wish but a country like England really should have strength in depth for all positions. Right now you don't.

The question really should have been "In a league awash with money how many over rated £30million players are there".
Hit the nail on the head there :cool:

I'll also add that the squads are too big too. No team needs more that 20 players, with obvious adjustments for long term injuries.
 
sure it would be great to have the Prem full of mostly homegrown talent but its not going to happen any time soon. We can blame an influx of foreign players but in reality managers dont have the time to groom young talent because of pressure and financial worries.
Football now is driven by money and instant success, with young English talent costing ten times their worth ofc a clubs directors would rather import decent foreigners to do the job.

I for one would rather see our teams filled with homegrown talent but i cant deny that the 'foreign' players contribute to making the Prem the best league to watch in the world, without them it wouldnt be as good, sadly.
 
Quotas are a bad idea for the following reason:

Imagine this weekend. 220 players start in the premier league - about 70 will be English.

Bring in the quota and what will be get?

The 70 we've already got plus the best 100 or so from the Championship and league 1. Yeah - I can see the cream of the Championship (Beattie and Phillips are top scorers at the moment) striking fear into the hearts of European teams like Germany, Portugal, France and dare I say Croatia.

Give me a break!

[marl got it spot on above]

The only solution will takes decades to bear fruit and it is to encourage the development of young English players technically, physically and mentally.

If we were serious about this every other league would be complaining in 20 / 30 years that 'it's not fair that we are overrun by English players!' That would be a nice thing to hear would it not?

For now we don't have a premiership full of English players because English players are not good enough. We need quality - just adding the likes of Bradley Wright-Phillips will not make us a European superpower and it is madness to suggest otherwise!

Quotas are a typical England response though:
'It's not fair so we'll change the rules because we can't compete'.
instead of:
'We'll fight and work hard to establish English players as greater force in world football.'

What happened to our fighting spirit? Pride? Determination? Quotas are for the weak and pathetic - no wonder England are talking about introducing them. Weak and pathetic somes us up at the moment and I'm ashamed of it.

/rant off ;)

edit: This thread should be entitled: 'English football is overun with quality players and not enough of them are English'
 
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When you look at the likes of Gerrad, Lampard for example, they're average players who are paid world class wages..

love you to find a team that would not want to sign someone as good as gerrard or lampard.
They are far from average.
The national team just doesnt work very well, this is mostly down to a crap mentality, lack of passion, and crap management
 
One of the problems I see is that English players at all levels are too highly paid so this puts top flight clubs (home and abroad) off. When you see a Championship player on x pounds a week, is he really going to want to move elsewhere for less? When you look at the likes of Gerrad, Lampard for example, they're average players who are paid world class wages.. which they are not and this was demonstrated last night.

I'm going to be honest haven't read rest of thread but the above quote is so true sooner everyone understands we aren't even half as good as we think /press and the media build players up to be the better. its quite clear England have at best 3 world class players and I think i'm been generous there TBH
 
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