exactly... Ross has really got his work cut out at that team now... hope he turns it around.
toyota are a joke too... start getting some results, then fire your good team members....
F1 2007/2008 Winter Testing and Rumours
- Thread starter rpstewart
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exactly... Ross has really got his work cut out at that team now... hope he turns it around.
toyota are a joke too... start getting some results, then fire your good team members....
My gut feeling tells me that whenever Ferrari want to post a fast lap, no other team seems to be able to reply to it. Earlier (I think last week), it was Massa who was consistently fast. This week, we see Kimi at the top. My suspicion is that Heiki posted his fast time in favourable conditions.
The Ferraris look consistently quick and this bodes well for them during a full race distance. Much like the latter half of last year.
I love this game, because you can post anything and it cant be proven wrong until the season starts!
I think the Ferraris are flat out and Force India are running at 5% of their capacity!
Is more accurate.
McLaren aren't going to drop what they're doing, drain the tanks, bolt on fresh boots and send Lewis out for a qually special just because Ferrari put in a quick lap. Testing is not racing, McLaren's test plan will have been written months ago and they aren't going to deviate from it unless they have a major problem which needs immediate attention.
In a similar vogue though its unlikely that Ferrari would have emptied the tanks for Massa or Kimi just to prove a point.
Yes it is very difficult to judge any speed / or lack of / in testing as they all have different programmes but at some point during that programme one would think they would empty the tanks to simulate the balance of the car on low fuel - that includes Mclaren and Ferrari and all the others.
Not pointed at you Rpstewart, but I love how (inc ITV-F1 commentators) love to point out that when Ferrari is quick its cause they are running empty and when anyone else is, its because their car has fundamental speed. Hilarious based on the number of wins Ferrari have posted over the last few years
Most of the time, teams will show their speed during testing. I know that we are still in January so there is still a long time to go, as teams get to grips with learning how to setup their cars and developing parts, however, to me it seems obvious that Ferrari are not struggling for speed. It is also obvious that Honda are struggling for speed. Over a single lap, McLaren seem to be falling in just behind Ferrari.
Both Ferrari drivers have topped the times on separate days, yet only a single McLaren driver has done the same, once. From this we can infer that the Ferraris seem to be more drivable OR Ferrari are ahead on the learning curve, in comparison to all the other teams.
Also, some of you forget about just how big an ego most drivers have. Although being top of the time sheets during testing doesnt serve any purpose, it definitely boosts your ego. I refuse to believe that a driver, at any time, is happy to finish last, knowing that he and his car have the pace to finish top.
Both Ferrari drivers have topped the times on separate days, yet only a single McLaren driver has done the same, once. From this we can infer that the Ferraris seem to be more drivable OR Ferrari are ahead on the learning curve, in comparison to all the other teams.
Also, some of you forget about just how big an ego most drivers have. Although being top of the time sheets during testing doesnt serve any purpose, it definitely boosts your ego. I refuse to believe that a driver, at any time, is happy to finish last, knowing that he and his car have the pace to finish top.
Not pointed at you Rpstewart, but I love how (inc ITV-F1 commentators) love to point out that when Ferrari is quick its cause they are running empty and when anyone else is, its because their car has fundamental speed. Hilarious based on the number of wins Ferrari have posted over the last few years
I think that bias was more down to the fact that the Ferraris were competing directly with Hamilton. Had Hamilton been driving a Ferrari, then I'm sure we would get the commentary favouring the Ferraris.
Its a shame though, people seem to lose their ability to remain objective, once nationalism comes into it.
The data your basing the inference on makes it highly unreliable, nigh on erroneous. Who else has set top times?
Im sure part of it was, but I was mainly talking about the years prior to LH being in the game....but then it may have been biased againt the greatest driver to have graced F1...to date.
For an experienced team like Honda, building an F1 car should be easy. However, making a fast car obviously isnt. But, when you consider that Honda have considerable resources behind them, it certainly makes you wonder what the problem is.
Last year was particularly embarrassing when the 2006 car was beating the 2007 car, with allegedly better drivers driving the 2007 car.
Obviously Honda want to win, which is why they have Brawn on board (they convinced him of this fact), so I dont believe they are content (like Toyota
) to simply make up the numbers. They are trying hard to make their car quicker, but it just isnt happening at the moment.My own feeling is that they need a top class driver to get motivated again, knowing that rather than fighting for 15th place, (in the hands of a top class driver) the car they produce will be vying for victory. I believe this is the effect that MS had when he moved to Ferrari. He inspired them.
The problem is that Honda are so far behind that I honestly cant see them consistently competing for victory, even if they had a top class driver, for at least another 5-10yrs.
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For an experienced team like Honda, building an F1 car should be easy. However, making a fast car obviously isnt. But, when you consider that Honda have considerable resources behind them, it certainly makes you wonder what the problem is.
Last year was particularly embarrassing when the 2006 car was beating the 2007 car, with allegedly better drivers driving the 2007 car.
Obviously Honda want to win, which is why they have Brawn on board (they convinced him of this fact), so I dont believe they are content (like Toyota
My own feeling is that they need a top class driver to get motivated again, knowing that rather than fighting for 15th place, (in the hands of a top class driver) the car they produce will be vying for victory. I believe this is the effect that MS had when he moved to Ferrari. He inspired them.
The problem is that Honda are so far behind that I honestly cant see them consistently competing for victory, even if they had a top class driver, for at least another 5-10yrs.
The driver's impact on development is minimal in comparison what it once was. I don't think hiring Schumacher-like figure would make any difference to Honda, who's problems essentially stem from an excess of top-down management with little appreciation for technical affairs (see Nick Fry).
I have a strong suspicion that under the leadership of Ross Brawn, they will turn things around by the end of the season and at least be fighting for the 'best of the rest' crown by 2009. Remember Benetton (nee Renault) were absolutely hopeless at the beginning of the decade, yet we all know how that turned out.
And Button and Barrichello are top drivers!
Yes. But Benetton had Briatore, Brawn, Byrne and MS. Thats essentially a dream team. Honda have Brawn. Thats it.
When I say top drivers, I mean drivers capable of winning the world title. Right now, in F1, the only drivers who are capable of doing this are Raikkonen, Alonso and Hamilton. If somebody else wins the title this or next year, it will be one heck of a shock.
They had the same driver lineup last year and they only won the driver's championship by the skin of their teeth and only won the constructors on a technicality - McLaren thrashing them in reality.
That's far from certain, I reckon Renault could well be back this year
LOL, "just" need to finish in front of Hamilton? Easier said than done.
Conversely, McLaren appear to have done much more work on their car for this year. Ferrari appear to have taken a conservative approach in the quest for improved reliability. Massa is also having a lot of trouble with the lack of TC (and more specifically the engine braking issues it brings). If, as expected, Hamilton dominates Kovalainen then Raikonnen and Massa could be in danger of taking points off each other whilst Hamilton stretches ahead.
Basically there are arguments both ways but I think the Ferrari/McLaren battle is looking healthy and there's the possibility of BMW and Renault getting a lot closer to the front, although BMW have some balance issues to resolve quickly.
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I meant early this decade, as in the return of Renault as a works outfit after buying Benetton (and subsequently running under the Benetton name in 2001). Briatore part of a dream team?
I don't buy in to this supposed gulf in ability between the drivers you mentioned and the rest. I'd say Button, Barichello, Massa, Heidfeld, Kubica, Trulli, Webber and perhaps others are just as good. And surely winning the WC is more dependant on driving the right car for the right team than a tenth or so driving advantage over your rivals?
I meant early this decade, as in the return of Renault as a works outfit after buying Benetton (and subsequently running under the Benetton name in 2001). Briatore part of a dream team?
He is a great boss and generally spots talent and is able to get the best out of his drivers. He did this first with MS and then again with Alonso. I cant think of any other team principal in the last 15yrs, who can boast the same track record.
When we talk about the best drivers in F1, we are not just talking about their ability to be fast over a single lap. We are talking about the following attributes:
The ability to:
1. be fast over 1 lap (qualifying)
2. be fast over a full race distance (this is what wins you races)
the ability to conserve your car if you feel that it is going through a bad patch
3. keep a calm head when everybody is losing theirs (useful in chaotic wet races)
4. make very few mistakes and consistently keep scoring points
5. make the right strategic decisions, during the race
6. communicate and get the best out of your mechanics, when setting up the car
7. drive the car fast during your in/out pit laps (lots of time can be made up here)
8. assist in the development of the car throughout the year
9. manouvre yourself, into the best cars/teams (Senna/Prost were great in this dept)
10. keep yourself fit and healthy throughout the season, so fatigue doesnt become a problem during race weekends
11. extract the maximum speed out of your car, even when the car is a turkey (MS scores heavily here, as witnessed by his first year in a Ferrari)
12. drive fast in changing weather conditions (MS and Senna were legendary in this department and would generally score heavily over their opponents in these types of races).
The above are only a few facets that separate the best drivers from the lesser drivers. There are loads more. Generally, Michael Schumacher would score highly in almost every department. He would be the benchmark that all other drivers would need to follow. This doesnt mean that there werent other drivers that couldnt match or surpass him in some areas (for me Senna was the fastest driver Ive ever seen, over a single qualifying lap, but MS was better in a lot of other areas).
I agree that over a single lap, most drivers are not separated by much (in terms of time), but they might get left for dead in other areas. And it is in these areas that drivers like Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton show their class over the rest.
On this forum Jenson Button seems to be a favourite, but after 100+ grand prix and only a single win, you have to accept that he will never be a world champion. People have made excuses and have even suggested that his smooth driving style will push him up the grid, now that TC is gone. Well, low and behold, he is still bringing up the rear (see the latest testing times).
Ive said this for a while now, the teams that were fast last year will be quick this year. The lack of TC wont make any difference as all drivers will quickly adapt to driving without TC.
Met Geoff last week and is a really nice bloke.A passion about winning is one thing he has in abundance. There have been some massive changes at Redbull since his arrival [along with others] which can only be good for RBR and my bonus
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Mercedes and Eddie Jordan were largely responsible for recognising Michael Schumacher's talent and bringing him to the higher echelons of motorsport. It wasn't as if Briatore plucked him from obscurity; after a few races for Jordan every team principle with half a brain wanted to sign him and it just so happened that Benetton were lucky enough to succeed (Tom Walkinshaw, a huge chequebook, Willi Webber and some oily legal contract interpretation were just as instrumental, by the way).
Granted, he did 'spot' Alonso but it's not as if he didn't see fit to have him testing for a year. And by Fernando’s own admission, he was very fortuitous in his relationship with Britatore as many other talents (perhaps equal talents) fall in to obscurity without the aid of a ‘sugar daddy’ figure to propel their career.
The only thing FB is really good at is protecting his own interests (usually in regard to the drivers he manages - see shifty business with the Alonso/Trulli affair) and of course, impregnating models. To describe him as any sort of great Formula One boss is an absolute INSULT to the Frank Williams' and Colin Chapmans of this world.
You've just described most of the drivers on the current grid.
As I said, there's no evidence to suggest this is true. For instance, Alonso has shown himself to be psychologically weak, petulant, unable to beat a rookie and reliant on the machinations of upper management in order over to overcome teammates (see competition against Trulli, Fisichella). Raikonnen, by all accounts, isn’t much of a team player, is not a good development driver, was bettered by Massa for much of last season (who many consider a journeyman) and was bettered by Heidfeld (a fact that is largely ignored) . Some say he’s lazy and not anything remotely like the unadulterated winning machine Schumi was. As for Hamilton – we all know he choked at the end of last season. I still don’t think we’ve seen enough of him to put him in the ‘greats’ category yet. Time will tell.
Of course those three are exceptionally good drivers; it would be ignorant of me to suggest otherwise. My point is that there are other truly exceptional talents in F1 today who are their equals.
If he finds his way in to race-winning car, he'll easily win a Championship - you can't blame him for the failings of his teams/cars over the years. Since 2002 he's consistently delivered the goods and exhibited virtually every quality you've listed above. If he never finds himself in the position to win, i.e. in a top car, you may have to point the finger at his poor season in 2001 and some truly horrendous contract decisions over the years. However you can bet that literally every team on the grid would be more than happy to have him in one of their cars.
Briatore was the one who fought tooth and nail for his services. I remember Eddie Jordan wanted to keep MS, but the courts decided otherwise.
Not true. Frank Williams, Ron Dennis and the Ferrari team had no interest in signing MS. Together with Benetton, these were the top4 teams in F1 at the time. Only Briatore had the forsight that MS could well go onto become the best driver in F1.
And that is all part of being a top boss - to be able to bring people from differing backgrounds who have different needs and getting the best out of them. He helped develop MS and Alonso. That is a fact and not an opinion.
Once again, not true. You are generalising, but if we talk specifics, we can see some drivers scoring high in some areas and low in others. While some drivers (like MS, Prost, Senna), will score high in most areas and it is this that makes them world champions. If you want to get really specific, then I'm happy to do so.
Wrong. He proved that even when most of the team were not talking to him, including his own boss and he had a gut feeling that everybody in McLaren wanted him out and not to win the title, he still persevered and outscored his team mate in the 2nd half of the season. To do this takes immense mental strength. For anyone reading this, try imagining the place where you currently work at, 90% of people not talking to you, believing that you are a waste of space, hoping you leave in a few weeks. Imagine, going in to work and hoping that you dont have to see certain people, as you just arent getting along with them. Imagine, going to lunch, everybody is sitting on one table, while you are sitting alone. These conditions will demoralise most people and even the best worker (or driver) can succumb to this mental torture. Alonso withstood it.
Petulant, yes, but then if you go back through the history of F1, all the top drivers fall into this category. Even the greatest driver in F1, MS.
Unable to beat a rookie - the first half of the season, Alonso (and Kimi), were both learning how to drive with the new tyres. Once, they had learnt, in the 2nd half of the season, they both outscored the rookie.
Trulli and Fisichella, are not title contenders. Alonso is. He doesnt need management to subdue them, but if they back him up, his confidence grows and his performance will to. This is why it is very important as a team boss, to realise who your best drivers are, so you can back them up and get the best out of them. Ron Dennis was good like this, with Senna. Even when Senna, on global TV, stated he wanted to leave McLaren because they cant make a good car and that he wanted to drive for Williams, for free. Ron Dennis still backed him up. Frank Williams isnt very good with his drivers - Mansell left F1, after totally dominating the 1992 season because Frank Williams was faffing around to get Mansell on the cheap. Damon Hill, went the same way. Frank Williams cannot hang on to his World Champions.
I could go on and on, but this post is getting to long, so I shall stop here.