29th & 30th Football *Spoilers*

[BaZ87]

exactly, it's the excuse.

nn

Excuse? Sorry dan you either didn't understand what i was trying to say or you're talking rubbish.

Nobody has said it takes 7 years to win the league however Utd fans are the first to jump on other managers back for being unsuccessful in their first few years and totally forget Fergies first few years. Not an excuse just pointing out how fickle the majority of Utd fans are.

 

[JAzz]

I also find it funny how Arsenal fans can give Benitez stick when you consider that since he joined us he's won more than Wenger in the same time and imo we're more likely to win a trophy this season than Arsenal are.

Its all good and well Arsenal playing attractive football but untill this side wins anything its pretty meaningless.

I find it funny Liverpool fans even compare Wenger to Benitez. One has built three very good sides and on his way to building possibly his forth and greatest and on the other hand we have Benitez who hasn't even had one top side. I would love to see him and have another 4-5 years because by then he would need to have won 3 league titles to compare to Wenger. Going by his recent record I'd be surprised if his team even finished in the Top 2 in this time let alone win the title.

The league is where you are judged my friend. That proves you are worthy of being champions. Over 38 games nobody can say you were lucky. All good winning cup competitions and resting your players in the league for that but in the league Rafa has been a complete and utter failure and one fortunate CL win has kept him in his job. Even though we didn't win it we got to the CL final with a team that most Arsenal fans will tell you which simply wasn't good enough and substandard, one of the main reasons was in the league we weren't even bothered until late on and that gave us an edge in Europe. In Europe Rafa has been very good, a cut above even but it is all good doing well in Europe when you are out of the league title race by the new year. His test isn't how well he does in the CL, it is how well he does in the league.

Wenger has also worked under severe financial constrictions and never moaned and done his job, that is why he gets so much praise for his work. Our entire first team cost us almost as much as your striker pairing against West Ham yet Rafa still needs more to compete and has been in an unfair position according to some. You can keep pointing out his like for like records against Fergie and Wenger over x amount of years but then you are relying on him almost winning a title every other season after that to compare with them. I am not so sure that is gonna happen but ya never know Keep making your excuses for his failures....

Am I right in suggesting that Arsenal haven't finished above us under Rafa?

First season we finished 2nd whereas Liverpool finished 5th. Last season had the same number of points.

 

[BaZ87]

you rate him higher than fergie and mourinho? was it 5 or 6 posts ago that you said you can play all the pretty football you want but until you win something it's meaningless?

How do the posts contradict each other?

I think he's a great manager and has built sides that have won leagues and Fa cups while playing the best football i can remember seeing in the EPL.

 

[BaZ87]

......

Its a simple fact that since Rafa arrived we've won more than Arsenal have and that in the last 3 seasons we've finished ahead of you in the league twice.

Im not trying to compare Wenger with Benitez and ive said that Wenger has done a great job with Arsenal but unless you're content with playing great football and coming close but winning nothing then its entirely meaningless untill you actually win something.

Its very realistic that you will be knocked out by Utd in the FA cup and i can't see past Utd in the league which would leave the CL as your only chance of winning a trophy this season. Failure to win anything this season would mean no trophies in 3 seasons despite playing great football. Is that enough for Arsenal fans?

 

[DanH84]

you twist and turn a lot, if you think wenger is the best manager the premier league has seen then of course arsenal fans can laugh at you because benitez is not looking like having a clue, if them playing pretty football counts for little unless you win and benitez is more likely to win something than wenger this season then wenger would not be better than fergie, because fergie has consistently won more than wenger, in which case you did say arsenal spent quite a bit of money in the past as well so fergies' success wouldn't just be down to spending big.

mind you was it a month or two ago when you were saying that the media were just rehashing old quotes about the hicks/benitez saga and it was largely a story out of nothing?

 

[BaZ87]

I rate Wenger because of the style of football he plays and unlike other clubs (chelsea for example) he's managed to win things playing attractive football.

Arsenal fans shouldn't be critical of other clubs (especially ones that have won more than them recently) while they're not winning things.

mind you was it a month or two ago when you were saying that the media were just rehashing old quotes about the hicks/benitez saga and it was largely a story out of nothing?

No where did i say things were fine between Benitez and Hicks (the opposite in fact), i said the article that you brought up was **** because it was, they cut up quotes to make a story as they had nothing else to report.

 

[DanH84]

cool cool.

 

[JAzz]

Its very realistic that you will be knocked out by Utd in the FA cup and i can't see past Utd in the league which would leave the CL as your only chance of winning a trophy this season. Failure to win anything this season would mean no trophies in 3 seasons despite playing great football. Is that enough for Arsenal fans?

In an ideal world we would like to win trophies but I think most gooners see this season as one where we would rebuild after the huge changes we have had. Within 3 - 4 years our entire first team has almost changed so it will take time. At the start of the season us gooners wanted to see improvement and so far so good in that respect. Obviously with this incredible start we have had the title is a real possibility and see no reason why we can't push Man utd until the end

As for Man utd beating us in the league and cup, a strong possibility but then again they said Spurs would be in the Top 4 and we would struggle but here we after 24 games on 57 points, 29 points ahead of Spurs and joint with Man utd. At this point last season Man utd had 57 points as well so I wouldn't rule us out of anything just yet. We beat them convincingly at Old Trafford last season and know we can do it again. Whether we will obviously is another matter!

I'd rather win nothing playing good football than win nothing playing bad football Us changing our style and playing boring wouldn't guarantee any trophies either...

 

[BaZ87]

Thats fair enough but where you say you have and are going through a transitional period over the last 3-4 years, our side has also totally changed in the same period. Granted this season we've not progressed as much as we should have and Arsenal have jumped ahead of us (and Chelsea) but in the previous 3 years we've been performing very similar in the league to you but have also won and looked likely to win more trophies outside of the league.

Maybe in terms of challenging for the league Rafa would have been better off buying 2-3 players a year but of higher quality and accepting that it will be almost impossible to win anything in the first few years rather than buying 5-6 players per season and looking to challenge while progressing slowly.

 

[daz.wallace]

Yet Liverpool fans still think Benitez is great when every other person in the country can see the bloke is a buffon!

Not all Liverpool fans are blinded by 2 CL finals

Rafa's done a lot of good for Liverpool but I've had enough now. Pains me to say it but I want him out.

As much as I hate to agree, I came to the same conclusion a few weeks ago

 

[chesterstu]

That would be a poor excuse imo. Rafa is the main reason they aren't doing well and the Liverpool fans imo are blind to that because of a few cup runs, I wouldn't be surprised if they had another good cup run this season which will keep him in his job and Liverpool are nowhere near challenging for a league title.

I agree Liverpool are a cup team. I'm not a Liverpool fan but a big swatch of my mates are and i have been in Anfield on a Saturday afternoon for Liverpool v Wigan (as an example, i've been to far too many Liverpool games) and the atomsphere is dire, it's quiet and the they sit complaining. However, i have been there for CL games as well and it is truely fortress Anfield.

Part of Liverpools problem is the kopites.

PS While i am Evertonian that is not shading my opinion

 

[Chong Warrior]

Not all Liverpool fans are blinded by 2 CL finals

What a crazy comment?!

If he got 'pool to one final, fair enough, maybe the gods shined on him that year. Still one hell of a fluke though? To actually win it and then get to another final, something even Fergie and Wenger haven't managed must show you guys he knows FAR more about football then you could possibly ever know surely?

Utter, utter, madness

 

[daz.wallace]

What a crazy comment?!

If he got 'pool to one final, fair enough, maybe the gods shined on him that year. Still one hell of a fluke though? To actually win it and then get to another final, something even Fergie and Wenger haven't managed must show you guys he knows FAR more about football then you could possibly ever know surely?

Utter, utter, madness

Your missing the point, yes he got to 2 CL finals winning one of them, thus showing his tactics are spot on in Europe, no one is denying that, but he just cant cut the mustard in the league, he really struggles and the league is the bread and butter for the club.

Its no good being a master tactition in the CL if your not good enough in the league to qualify for that competition, which is looking likely this season

 

[Chong Warrior]

Even though you've qualified for the CL every year? I'd forget about the Prem, you aren't going to win that no matter who you have in charge, so stop dreaming and be grateful you play CL football and you're one of the most successful teams in it.

Man Utd and Chelsea are far stronger than you and Arsenal have always played better football since Whinger arrived, concentrate on 3rd/4th and the cups.

 

[wedgie]

Utter, utter, madness

Not really, cup competitions can be a lottery at the best of times. Some truly great sides have failed to win the CL, while some merely average sides have gone on to win it. That's not to say I'm belittling the achievement of getting to those 2 finals, but to use them as a measurement of how good a side he is building (and in turn how good of a job he is doing) is just foolish.

The league format is the only true measurement of a sides quality, because there's far less reliance on the 'anyone could beat anyone on any given day' factor. Just like under every other manager over the past few years, Liverpool have been miles away from winning the league under Benitez. There's no way he would still be Liverpool manager without those 2 CL finals, so it's fair to say the support he gets is based almost entirely on them, beacuse he's done **** all in the league to make the fans so loyal to him.

At least the support that Wenger recieved when Arsenal were off the pace was based on a proven track record of building great, winning sides.

 

[NokkonWud]

Even though you've qualified for the CL every year?

Only because they won it in '05. They finished 5th.

 

[Chong Warrior]

Only because they won it in '05. They finished 5th.

Oh is that all!

Wish I could say "We only won the CL"

 

[daz.wallace]

Not really, cup competitions can be a lottery at the best of times. Some truly great sides have failed to win the CL, while some merely average sides have gone on to win it. That's not to say I'm belittling the achievement of getting to those 2 finals, but to use them as a measurement of how good a side he is building (and in turn how good of a job he is doing) is just foolish.

The league format is the only true measurement of a sides quality, because there's far less reliance on the 'anyone could beat anyone on any given day' factor. Just like under every other manager over the past few years, Liverpool have been miles away from winning the league under Benitez. There's no way he would still be Liverpool manager without those 2 CL finals, so it's fair to say the support he gets is based almost entirely on them, beacuse he's done **** all in the league to make the fans so loyal to him.

At least the support that Wenger recieved when Arsenal were off the pace was based on a proven track record of building great, winning sides.

exactly

 

[NokkonWud]

Oh is that all!

Wish I could say "We only won the CL"

lol, but still, there was all that hoo-ha about who should be 'qualified' to get in the CL, be it Liverpool or Everton that season.

 

[BaZ87]

Everton in the CL is just not to be and the sooner everybody realises that the better.

Also i don't agree with the stuff about Benitez only being in the job because of the CL win. Our club has proven that they give managers time, Houllier was given 6 seasons and didn't win anything (or even qualify for the CL) untill his 3rd, he then failed to qualify for the CL in his 5th season and was still given another year.