Fat busting pills

Freefaller said:
Well what can I say, I must have a perfect body/metabolism. I eat when I'm hungry, I eat well. I exercise well, have a varied diet and don't smoke and don't eat any crap or processed foods. All that I've achieved and by the very admission of members here I have achieved incredible results, I've done this purely down to eating well, and being careful but working hard. Sure I appreciate that your body may need supplementing as it utilises extra nutrients, but I've achieved what I've wanted to achieve through nature.

People are lazier these days. Look over the past millennium, there were many fit strong human beings they never supplemented their diets. Why should I have to do so now?

I don't do the whole bulk/cut thing - I guess if I was trying to drop weight I'd maybe have a different idea, however I was over 17st once (when playing rugby) and just ate less, worked out harder, did more exercise and dropped down to 13st over a couple of years. I'm in perfect health - well I'm happy enough, and it's been down entirely to me. Sure I spend close to £60 a week on food for myself alone, but I buy good quality foods, vary my diet and eat well. Nature has all it has for me. I don't need supplements. Some people who need help who use them to take it to the next step will help, and I KNOW that some supplements DO work and work well. Someone like Chong, his physique is awesome, but my goals are different to his. I can't be bothered with pulsing supps, and taking them here and there, and keeping an eye on them. I'd rather just live my life.

The gym is a big part of my life, but as much as it's important it moves around me, not me around it.

I know the effects of a lot of these drugs and supplements, and I know they'd work if I wanted to take them. But you don't need them.
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I don't remember saying you do need them, i said, they help, like exercise and the right diet help. Also, actually in fact, you DO need them. I take l-carnitine as it simply helps me speed up the process of losing fat, not much, but it helps optimise. Its not lazy, I'm eating VERY VERY healthily, i exercise as much as someone with two utterly and hopelessly screwed knews, a hip, an ankle, a wrist, a elbow and a shoulder can(which isn't much). I just flat out know if i eat a few extra things here and there i can speed up weight loss, and when it comes to it, muscle gain. 99% of what I'm taking is natural stuff, just with everything else ripped out so I don't have to drink 15 cups of green tea which I really don't get on with, I can just have the extract. Boo hoo.

You do need b12, you eat it in your diet, so do I, i just add a little more to make sure I have enough, better to have to much(to a certain point) than not enough. Not enough stalls many functions in the body, too much, isn't much of an issue. every supplement I take, my body can create, but maybe not effectively.

Maybe you do have the perfect metabolism, not everyones the same, some people have very low thyroid levels, is it bad of them to give their thyroid a kick in the ass so it functions at a normal or even slightly increased level. Maybe yours was functioning very very well and better than most. Maybe you ate a lot more of one thing in your diet, I dunno 12lbs of red meat a day, which is natural but gave you ludicrous creatine levels, I don't know. But supplements, most, are just things that can be normally found and are great for you, that maybe you don't want to eat, or can't eat all the time normally.

Could also say that 100 years ago, we had more selenium in our food, a lot more, to have the same level now you would have to supplement, lots of our foods simply aren't the same as 100 years ago. I don't eat meat, but the quality is largely different now, well specifically in cheap meat, you could buy cheap meat and "supplement" :p the difference, or buy expensive meat and end up with the same nutrients in your system, does it matter if one is called natural and one isn't, to some people it does.

Now I could also say, you lost 4 stone in 2 years, thats good and lots of people wouldn't keep it off. But if someone had told you the right supplements to take, the right diet, and you could have lost that weight in 5-6 months, safely, and kept it off and just have been at your current weight/health for longer, would that have been somehow bad, because you had some of your food in pills, rather than in a plastic in the fridge?

I don't grow any of my food, I buy it all, it all comes wrapped up and stored and eaten as and when needed, to me, supplements are no different at all, to some people they are. I can just choose the perfect nutritional setup that works for me, without any deviation and without having anything I don't want its really that simple. I don't take some ephedra and then add in 3 pizza's a week as a cop out.

AS it goes, I feel great and have lost coming close to 2 stone in just over two months, I'm sure I could have done a decent portion of that without some supplements but I know I wouldn't have gotten this far or feel this healthy doing it.
 
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Each to their own. :)

It's a shame evolution doesn't work any more - we keep cheating the system. The stronger no longer necessarily survives, and obviously I'm the epitome of evolution ;) (that was a joke please lighten up!)

Obviously you're knowledgeable, I'm not denying that. And of course as I agreed when you get to a certain level in your training, certainly if you're among the small percentage of the population that does attain a high level, to enable your body to respond quicker and better to your exercises and diet I can see and do understand that SOME supps will help. I never denied that. :)

However, I don't like shortcuts (which is a bit of stubborness I'll admit) and don't mind taking it slow and steady. Sure it's taken 18months to develop my physique - I reckon with OKG, stacks of EAAs, glutamine, ZMA etc... I could have done it in maybe 1/2 the time - however I'd much rather let my body tell me what it needs and I'm quite introspective to what my body needs. I can tell if my blood sugar is low, I know what vegetables it needs, it's funny I get cravings for things at times like carrots and broccoli etc... lol. I admit I am perhaps quite fortunate with my genetics, however I think in a way we were talking a little at cross purposes, as my issue was people RELYING on suppse and using it as an quick fix rather than REALLY understanding them.
 
If there was a safe and effective supplement to losing weight then the NHS would use it drunkenmaster. Now you could get into a debate on whether the NHS should be providing such things, but it certainly does provide treatments for obesity. At the end of the day obesity is such a major problem and such health implications that is is worth it financially for the NHS to cough up and treat.

The idea of taking levothyroxine or anything you feel will boost your thyroid levels is just dangerous. The feedback pathways for your thyroid are pretty good at regulating themselves, and either will largely ignore your supplementation, or if direct supplementing with thyroxine will actively reduce your endogenous production of thyroxine to stop you becoming hyperthyroid as this is dangerous for your body. Unless you actually have a medical problem that requires this then you should NOT be on levothyroxine, and it is NEVER prescribed to aid in weight loss, if you truly know of it being prescribed in this way then it's a matter for the GMC.
 
No I see your point, and I also think no one has to in any way take things. Although lots of people can really massively benefit. Now if you were a touch open minded and I took an alternate situation which could easily have happened to you.

What if, when you stopped playing rugby your metabolism, from running less, dropped quite a lot, you changed your diet to lose a little weight but unintentionally dropped I don't know, iodine out of your diet without realising it. That had the side effect of massively dropping your thyroid function and you had incredibly trouble losing weight and every time you dropped your calorie intake, your metabolism just followed it all the way down to smeg all. In that case, iodine, maybe some other thyroid things could have helped you, so could, Spinach, but lets go with, you're also allergic to spinach :p So you had little choice but to go with some Iodine tablets and suddenly you're fine again and losing weight as before.

The thing is, the human body really is just an insane, almost unimaginable number of interative, cross operating systems that 3mg less of one sustance a day you're missing because, you don't like, say fish, you could slow and hurt a dozen systems, it could all be testosterone producing and not effect you losing weight much, but the missing thing could be something effecting all your endocrine systems and your metabolism went to hell.

I use supplements simply to get me where I'm going faster, mostly because with a lack of being able to do that much exercise its such a long and demoralising path ahead that the quicker i Can hit my goals the better.

The other huge problem is just the way our society eats frankly. THe uk/us government are still promoting this high carbs, low fat system for eating, the system that the US agriculture department came up with post war when they really kicked into gear their mass production of all things carbs. It wasn't the health department, it wasn't a doctor, it was a guy who wanted to sell corn to all of america, and the world, that told everyone to eat shedloads of carbs. I guess i feel a tiny bit angered that through school, and life I've been told a way to eat thats just patently unhealthy and bad for you in general and it was introduced, for profit.

In the past 10 years the number of people who have totally changed the way they eat and gotten into gym going, and maybe not stopped carbs but stopped eating the massively refined carbs that were pushed on us for the past 40 years, is a pretty big change. You can just see the number of gyms there are today compared to 5 years ago let alone 15 years ago.
 
heeeed said:
If there was a safe and effective supplement to losing weight then the NHS would use it drunkenmaster. Now you could get into a debate on whether the NHS should be providing such things, but it certainly does provide treatments for obesity. At the end of the day obesity is such a major problem and such health implications that is is worth it financially for the NHS to cough up and treat.

The idea of taking levothyroxine or anything you feel will boost your thyroid levels is just dangerous. The feedback pathways for your thyroid are pretty good at regulating themselves, and either will largely ignore your supplementation, or if direct supplementing with thyroxine will actively reduce your endogenous production of thyroxine to stop you becoming hyperthyroid as this is dangerous for your body. Unless you actually have a medical problem that requires this then you should NOT be on levothyroxine, and it is NEVER prescribed to aid in weight loss, if you truly know of it being prescribed in this way then it's a matter for the GMC.
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TO be fair I'm not sure if it is provided in the UK for that, but it certainly has and is being perscribed worldwide. I also eluded to the fact that there are dozens of things that simply will help you increase metabolism and can be proven, but are far to direct. THe less direct things by way of being less direct are harder to prove they work. But things like T3/4/5 have been known hormones with research done on them for a long time and drugs made for years which were started to be tested for approval decades ago, the research into the smaller pathways in the system is really not old, the drugs are just starting to be made and testing just being done, it doesn't mean they don't work just because they are 20 years later to the table than drugs available now, which were in labs 20 years ago already ;) To be fair, I won't take things like T5 even if i could get a perscription its a short term help, that has to be cycled too carefully and can have bad side effects and isn't worth it. I already said it screws with the bodies own production and lowers it and while that can help in some situations, some body builders will take it for quick loss in a week/two pre comp full well knowing afterwards it will hurt them. Its not for long term use. IT is dangerous, but that doesn't mean it can't be used safely. But it will simply take a heck of a lot longer to come up with supporting drugs that are helpful, provably helpful and safe and they've really only just started working on these things.


But things like supporting the thyroid, actively won't reduce fat, they aren't designed to, it will support the body in losing fat if its ready to lose fat. however fat/carb blockers, appetite supressants are very direct things but as they don't really interact directly with many systems are deemed safe and really will massively reduce calorie intake. Almost all decent research shows rebound weight gain on these things is immense making the pills all but completely useless, but they are still perscribed. The NHS would simply not, and will not perscribe smaller drugs that are supporting drugs that simply help you do something better, and research won't always agree on how effective they are.

Research agrees on both the effectiveness of fatblockers in that they do exactly what they say on the tin, and the fact that almost all people that take them rebound weight gain to worse than they were before, so they are nothing less than bad for people that take them, yet the NHS still perscribes them. This goverment still tries to tell you fats are bad, and the devils work. If the country stopped eating carbs, there wouldn't be enough veg, fat and protein to feed the country and 1000's of farmers would go bankrupt overnight, sorry if i don't think what the government deems the NHS can perscribe as proof that nothing else works.

What I'm trying to highlight is, the goverment could massively reduce obesity and weight problems by suggesting MUCH healthier diets that are proven, you know, over the last several hundred million years, to be great for us, however, in doing so would massively hurt farmers, the economy and we also wouldn't have sufficient production of the right foods, nor persaude most people to switch to better diets. I 100% wouldn't assume the NHS would perscribe better drugs if they had them. I mean, look at the way our food has gone under government attemps to reduce obesity, low fat foods, the government came up with that one. So we had high fat high carb foods, and they take out a lot of the fat, which isn't bad for you, and add in more carbs to replace them and when you add carbs its normally always utter crap carbs, which is whats largely resulting in more diabetes. People are told to eat healthier so eat less fat, and eat more sugar, which infact makes diabetes and weight gain much worse problems. Yeah, sure, the NHS and the government have it perfectly right.
 
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Your either completely jacked because you know all this stuff or really skinny because you spend too much time reading and not enough time squatting :p
 
Freefaller said:
however I'd much rather let my body tell me what it needs and I'm quite introspective to what my body needs. I can tell if my blood sugar is low, I know what vegetables it needs, it's funny I get cravings for things at times like carrots and broccoli etc... lol. I admit I am perhaps quite fortunate with my genetics, however I think in a way we were talking a little at cross purposes, as my issue was people RELYING on suppse and using it as an quick fix rather than REALLY understanding them.
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forgot to mention, I get that too, and I only get that while I'm eating healthily. Randomly I'll crave some food that seems odd to eat on its own, like spinach, eggs, some fat, whatever. When I'm eating a more normal fairly high carb diet I really don't get that, I just feel bad, tired, hungry and in need of more carbs all the time.

I would also suggest a bunch of anti oxidants for many reasons, oil food is cooked in is often really chock full of free radicals as so many use oils that are mssively oxidised in cooking. Omega 3, in nuts, or tablets, or tablespoon of oil a couple times a day really is so good for you not least because, again compared to 100 years ago omega 3 in foods has gone massively down with omega 6 going massively up and the worse the ratio gets the less omega 3 your body can absorb and transform into dha/epa(two types of omega 3's). Its probably the single supplement everyone in any health should take every day tbh. Also remember that so many toxins that we ingest in tiny quantities that aren't really harmful, can be fat soluble and over years build up inside fat in the body. OFten times for no reason when you're losing weight you'll suddenly feel like death warmed up and it can simply be because of something releases as something stored in fat is released into the body, toxins, even bacteria i think can stay dormant in fat for a long time. Again why anti oxidants are just fantastic for you.
 
It's a good example. Fortunately I have been brought up abroad and thus have had a better education of food and nutrition. I've spent over half my life around the world (fortuitous for me I know) and seen what people and other cultures eat and seen their average diets and physiques. I'd agree that our society isn't up to scratch on proper nutrition.

Going back to the rugby argument - it's a good one. However other than personal education do you honestly think ANY GP in this country would even consider that iodine could have been a problem? I really doubt that anyone would ever suggest any iodine supplements to me had I had that problem - fortunately I'm not allergic to spinach and eat it regularly! :p

I agree, the human body is hugely complex, and what affects one person doesn't another, and there is no generic answer for everyone. That's why I'm so keen on varying my diet so much and why I spend so much on food, I like to keep my body "guessing" so to speak, to make sure it gets boosts of different things to keep it topped up I guess. However I've done this through my own education and research, obviously not into the nitty gritty detail you've studied it, but enough to see me through. Unfortunately people don't make the effort like you and I and hence say, "oh I'm taking xyz..." etc... and relying on it rather than first trying to sort out their diet, exercise or daily life styles.

As for the increase in gyms, that's just society... we don't work in farms anymore, or ride horses etc... we've lost ourselves a little and our bodies naturally need to exhaust itself to be healthy. I'm sure our diets have improved and our lifespans have increased in spite of medical improvements... however a lot of the people that go there achieve nothing much if they a) don't eat properly b) don't rest well c) drink/smoke in excess d) understand what they're bodies are going through etc.... However it is a good point.

We as homo sapiens have evolved over the past few hundred thousand years and become taller, more intelligent, stronger? maybe (though we used to hunt and perform more manual labour), however we've succeeded in getting to 2008 before supplements and either lack or surplus of certain chemicals. Of course we've evolved and maybe as a result now need these chemicals that for some reason haven't evolved in our diets. Though all the people that live to 90-100 now days I doubt ever took any supps, so they are not necessary for good health. Extreme athletes I can understand because they are at the epitome of human ability and development and use their bodies beyond what human nature intended that's just plain and simple. So aiding nature in it's development is of course understandable and necessary. For the average Joe though I still find it hard to believe that with a good varied diet (allergies aside) cannot achieve a certain level before exceeding nature - that's all I feel really. :)

I know that's the way we've evolved, but maybe in 10s of thousands of years have the chemicals our bodies now need, may synthesise themselves within our bodies owing to our diets etc... WE just don't know and it's fascinating. I find it (and your posts for example) really insightful to where we are as a race, and it's funny how we've come this far without needing extra nutrition, yet now to push ourselves beyond evolution, which is what we do at the gym, we need to artificially make ourselves evolve almost.

Again there will be people with lucky genetics, and some poor ****ers that are screwed owing to allergies and so on.... if I was being really harsh I would say that in the "real" world those people would die out as a result, of course I don't really mean that as i have many friends & family with allergies - but from a Darwinian pragmatic approach that's how it would be seen? That's a little bit of a tangent anyway, and it's not really going to achieve much in this conversation though - but just a little side line. However on that subject, it seems as a result of our "progress" and evolution we have also taken a backward step and pushed ourselves to self de-evolve (recede ?) as we seem to have more allergies now than ever before - though obviously that could be purely down to the fact we can spot them better now.

This is an interesting conversation mr drunkenmaster - I'm thoroughly enjoying it :)
 
Killa_ken said:
Your either completely jacked because you know all this stuff or really skinny because you spend too much time reading and not enough time squatting :p
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:p

inbetween, i go through stages, working out, getting pretty decent shape, at which point my joints go through a bad stage and i hit that, eating like i was squatting 700lbs all day long, while sitting on my ass gaining weight at insane speed zone :p

Then i finally get joints to a good point again, and need to lose weight and get the motivation to get fit again. stupid joints, had bad knees since i was 15 or so which mostly hurt all the time, but use them to much and they'll get insanely bad.

But yes, I also read a lot, and have a ridiculous, and irritating ability to remember almost all of what I read which is great for this stuff, but awful for playing games through a second time :p

At the moment i'm heavy, wayyy to heavy, stopping training because of bad joints coinciding with uni + the bowling team = insanely heavy drinking(rugby have nothing on bowlers) and I bloated up pretty big, chronic pain, really awful course, issues in life, depression and this time It really got out of hand. But like i said, without really any exercise I've lost best part of 2 stone in 2 months and going strong.

Unfortunately as with most things, knowing is one thing, doing is an entirely different thing ;)
 
drunkenmaster said:
forgot to mention, I get that too, and I only get that while I'm eating healthily. Randomly I'll crave some food that seems odd to eat on its own, like spinach, eggs, some fat, whatever. When I'm eating a more normal fairly high carb diet I really don't get that, I just feel bad, tired, hungry and in need of more carbs all the time.

I would also suggest a bunch of anti oxidants for many reasons, oil food is cooked in is often really chock full of free radicals as so many use oils that are mssively oxidised in cooking. Omega 3, in nuts, or tablets, or tablespoon of oil a couple times a day really is so good for you not least because, again compared to 100 years ago omega 3 in foods has gone massively down with omega 6 going massively up and the worse the ratio gets the less omega 3 your body can absorb and transform into dha/epa(two types of omega 3's). Its probably the single supplement everyone in any health should take every day tbh. Also remember that so many toxins that we ingest in tiny quantities that aren't really harmful, can be fat soluble and over years build up inside fat in the body. OFten times for no reason when you're losing weight you'll suddenly feel like death warmed up and it can simply be because of something releases as something stored in fat is released into the body, toxins, even bacteria i think can stay dormant in fat for a long time. Again why anti oxidants are just fantastic for you.
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I seldom use oil to cook with - as much as I love fried food, I tend to grill :( I do eat a lot of oily fishes and enjoy nuts etc... However as you say in our foods these days owing to the way of the world a lot more toxins are ingested - there's not much we can do about it really... :( I love going on a free radical hunt :D

I know you can get antioxidant tablets... but where's the harm in eating some strawberries or apples or other foods high in antioxidants? Surely if we follow nature's way it's better no?
 
Freefaller, not growing up in the UK, how lucky you are :p

I think one thing you said but didn't really highlight is one of the very biggest keys.

When losing weight people often stick with a bunch of set foods they know numbers for, and don't deviate. A very varied diet is completely key, however not enough people do eat varied enough, and I think partially due to English way of eating we all eat in a quite limited way to begin with, I guess you could say most people aren't very adventurous and stick with what they know, which is again where deficiencies can play a big part.

Ok, i might be stupid flouting evolution and being a vegetarian and it doesn limit me to a degree. I will never naturally have a "normal" creatine level because I don't eat red meat, saying that I don't take creatine either, though I guess I might when I get back to lifting again(if the shoulder ever gets better). Some, but not very much of my supplementing is compensating for being vegetarian, but some is not eating enough varied foods maybe, but largely just wanting to make sure i'm getting more than enough of some things.

I think , in an evolutionary stance we "should" be getting weaker as we have less need to be stong. We're certainly not all the same genetically, not 100% the same and we all can/will produce different levels of different hormones. While I might need help with some things losing weight, I might not need any supplements to gain muscle while you could be the opposite. The thing is without a chemical/biological normal to compare to, everythings guesswork to a degree. I can create more Co10 enzyme than you, you can make more l-carnitine than me, whats better, and in what situations, who the heck knows.

I think I was getting more at with the gyms, that people are really starting to question and change their habits. THere seemed to be a pretty long period there where we all just ate similarly, office workers were getting fatter, and after 20 years of a large shift towards office work people starting to do something about it and more and more people have been deciding to get fit.

I think the numbers have also started with how much people want to learn and what they do at the gym. 10 years ago loads of friends started to go the gym, but they used a bicep curl machine, a chest press, and 2 hours running. Now those same friends have changed their diet, use freeweights, do 30mins to an hour weights in a 3way split and do cardio at a different time.

But it doesn't help when the government and shops are pushing the country into this low fat foods direction, because they are so incredibly bad for you. Even the additives list is awful on a low fat compared to normal fat version. They put so much crap in to compensate for lack of fat.
 
Freefaller said:
I seldom use oil to cook with - as much as I love fried food, I tend to grill :( I do eat a lot of oily fishes and enjoy nuts etc... However as you say in our foods these days owing to the way of the world a lot more toxins are ingested - there's not much we can do about it really... :( I love going on a free radical hunt :D

I know you can get antioxidant tablets... but where's the harm in eating some strawberries or apples or other foods high in antioxidants? Surely if we follow nature's way it's better no?
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well if I'm honest, I may be a vege but for some reason I'm just not a fan of fruit at all. I have no clue why, i can eat veg all day long but fruit just doesn't do it for me. Texture, taste, nothing. IT was something I never ate as a kid and can't seem to start eating now, i think grapes are the only fruit I actually like and they barely count :p

But I'm totally happy eating an omega 3 capsule, i just see it as easy fruit without the texture in a quick easy to eat pill, kind of. I eat lots of peppers though which have a ton of vit C in, and I do get a fair amount of omega's from egg's which I eat daily, and soya milk, pine nuts. I eat a heck of a lot more natural good stuff like omega's and vitamins than I used to before I add in the supplements anyway, just attacking from all fronts I guess ;)

Conocut oil is supposed to be the single best thing because its a saturated fat and they essentially do not oxidise while heated at all. Monosaturates oxides but not to badly and poly's oxidise like there was no tomorrow. Again sunflower oil is soooo common in cooking food, and its just terrible, truly awful for you as it oxidises so badly. I stick with extra virgin olive, not as good as coconut, but its another taste i just do not get on with in the slightest.
 
Frank Butcher said:
There is another pill doing the rounds at the moment which is an appetite suppressant. .. A friend of mine lost 12 pounds the first week he was on them and typically most people seem to be losing 8 pounds or more a week.
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Even it it does work, what's the point? Appetite suppressants wouldn't accomplish anything you couldn't do yourself, and using them would be classifying yourself as weak-minded..
 
wush said:
Even it it does work, what's the point? Appetite suppressants wouldn't accomplish anything you couldn't do yourself, and using them would be classifying yourself as weak-minded..
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In so far as appetite supressants, the best one in the world is called, low carbs. actually thats a lie, the best supressant is called water and its blooming effective, 2nd is low carbs, 3rd is higher protein and fat intake and eating healthily.

I go through periods of not being that thirsty and when i start drinking lots of water again I'm always surprised at well, how good you can feel and how much less hungry I can be with one simple change.

Oh, and on most diets, assuming a large reduction in carbs which lots of diets these days have, the first week you do often see the biggest weight loss due to two things, the lag of metabolism adjusting to lower calories means you get a few days with the biggest difference between old metabolism and new calorie intake, also every gram of carb you eat is absorbed with 4grams of water. so if you normally ate 300grams of carbs a day, you would probabably have a decent stockpile of carbs in your muscles and liver, maybe a half kg or 1 lbs. which means you'd have another 4lbs of water being retained with it. Over 4-5 days of eating say 100grams of carbs your body will slowly use up its stockpile of carbs in the liver and muscles, meaning it uses 300-400grams carbs, but loses 4x that amount on top of water that will be released. THats what people mean about water weight being lost early. so that 12lbs was probably 4-5 lbs of water, and the first week of highest loss due to high metabolism, following weeks the water weight loss wouldn't happen anymore, leaving 6-7lbs of weight loss, but also your body will quickly adjust to being on much fewer calories, so that weight loss will dry up to 1-2lbs aswell. When those people go off the supressents, as they haven't changed their diets properly, they'll go back to eating the same as before, which by now is 1-2k calories above what their body is burning a day, and within 2 weeks put most of the weight back on as when they eat carbs, they'll soak up water with them again. Its an illusion and doesn't work for 90% of the people who take them.
 
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if you are doing the best diet for you and doing sufficient cardio / exercise, then fat blockers and appetite suppresents are the last thing you should be taking.
 
At the end of the day people believe what they want to believe and do exactly what they want to do.

So many people talk the talk, especially in forums like this.... yet very few seem to ever walk the walk? I just listen to the walkers ;)
 
Chong Warrior said:
At the end of the day people believe what they want to believe and do exactly what they want to do.

So many people talk the talk, especially in forums like this.... yet very few seem to ever walk the walk? I just listen to the walkers ;)
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oh ****! you must be on the special K challenge and also have a few pink patches on you!! :p
 
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