2008 Hungarian GP - Race 11/18

I don't doubt Kubica wants to be in the best car, they all do, but IMHO he should be showing a bit more loyalty and gratitude to the team that's made him a star and given him his first win.

Funny you should say that.

Senna never showed any loyalty to McLaren. He publicly announced that he wished to drive for Williams (mid season, 1992, while at McLaren), for free. He was desperate to be in the best car and he and everyone knew that the Williams car was about 1s/lap faster than the McLaren.

Loyalty has nothing to do with racing. If you want to reach the top you have to be ruthless. Button has shown loyalty to Honda and look where he is.

At the end of the day, if you are amongst the top 4 drivers in F1 (which Kubica currently is), then you deserve to be in a top 2 team. He is making it clear that if BMW cant provide him with a car capable of winning GPs, then he will move. Nothing wrong with that.

The worst thing that can happen is if you have potentially a great driver stuck in a slow car. Effectively, we, the audience, are being robbed of some great racing at the front and instead being served up with Hamilton winning by large margins, curtailed, only by safety cars.
 
You have completely twisted every single point - there is no point at all in discussing this

It is FACT that MS had it written in his contract that he would not have any competition within the team he was driving for (maybe excepting Jordan)

Seeing as the Ferrari (where he was for the majority of his career) was one of the best cars on the grid for 90% of the time he was there (baring 96 I dont think its even much to argue about this) it was only EVER going to be his team mate that was his major competition - and with no points for qualifying, if you thought Alonso was "dispirited" at McLaren last year - just imagine how crap all his team mates must have felt NEVER being able to race equally with their team mate

Barichello and Irvine where in plenty of situations where they HAD to allow MS though in races where Ferrari had 1-2's at the end

IF MS had bothered to even consider having an equal team mate in a team that wasnt wholly geared around "God Almighty" and hadnt tried to win two championships by ramming competitors off the track - like you I might be ready to kiss his ***, but sorry I look a little deaper and dont respect his constant .......stretching of the rules

I agree, I think it's a shame his achievements will always be tainted.
He was good enough to be fair.

He rammed Hill, while Hill was travelling at high speed, with a car that he new was severely damaged. In any real world he would have been done for assault.
 
predictions for the race anyone?

Its difficult to see past a Hamilton win. The safety car is probably one of the few things that can stop him now, but you never know, the McLaren team might mess up his strategy somehow - they are very good at doing this.

kimi will work up to a podium i think, he normaly does well in at damage limitation.

Yep. Kimi's race pace is almost always faster than his qualifying pace.

oh and coulthard to collide with button.

Coulthard does seem to have a high number of collissions, doesnt he.
 
He rammed Hill, while Hill was travelling at high speed, with a car that he new was severely damaged.

Yep. That was one of the most obvious incidents in F1 history. Anyone can see what MS was trying to do. For the first time that season, Hill actually had MS under serious pressure.
 
I want it to be a very hot race - lets see some tyre issues and blown engines please.
 
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Did he also have it written into his contract that he must lap his team mate and qualify 0.5-1.0s/lap ahead of his team mate?

If you are the team mate in the 2nd best car on the grid in the best team, whats the point in trying to beat your team mate when you arent allowed to pass him? Its completely pointless - even more demoralising than Alonso at McLaren last year

You are obviously convinced that MS was holier than though and therefore had every right to rely on legal documentation to be the best in the world - IF he was, he wouldnt have needed that stipulation and Ferrari would have been run more as an equal team


I cant see Kovi coming in 2nd even on such a tight twisty circuit as the 'ring

McLaren 1 - 3 with Massa in the middle, Kimmi will be lucky to finish top 5
 
If you are the team mate in the 2nd best car on the grid in the best team, whats the point in trying to beat your team mate when you arent allowed to pass him? Its completely pointless - even more demoralising than Alonso at McLaren last year

You are obviously convinced that MS was holier than though and therefore had every right to rely on legal documentation to be the best in the world - IF he was, he wouldnt have needed that stipulation and Ferrari would have been run more as an equal team


I cant see Kovi coming in 2nd even on such a tight twisty circuit as the 'ring

McLaren 1 - 3 with Massa in the middle, Kimmi will be lucky to finish top 5


I got a sneaky feeling that we may see one of those wierd races today :D

I hope so for our sakes at least!
 
If you are the team mate in the 2nd best car on the grid in the best team, whats the point in trying to beat your team mate when you arent allowed to pass him? Its completely pointless - even more demoralising than Alonso at McLaren last year

There is a point.

If you are a true racer (and I am, so I know what I would do), then what you do is

1. you try to outqualify your team leader (which MS's team mates seldom did).
2. You also try and dominate in practise.
3. Once the race begins, you try and outpace your team leader, you are allowed to do this, but usually, after the pitstops, you will be asked to move over.
4. You can then let your team leader through and then follow him closely, never more than 2s away from his back. Hill did this to Prost in 1994.

If you do the above and can show you are MS's equal, then eventually, your team boss will have to have a re-think and perhaps give you a chance to win. To simply give up, is ridiculous and goes totally against the mentality of a person who has shown great determination to get into F1.

When JJ Lehto was getting lapped by MS, he was not demoralised due to team orders, he was demoralised because he was taking one heck of a beating at the hands of MS.

You are obviously convinced that MS was holier than though and therefore had every right to rely on legal documentation to be the best in the world - IF he was, he wouldnt have needed that stipulation and Ferrari would have been run more as an equal team

MS wouldve beaten all his team mates, in any case. By having team orders, it made his life easier and allowed him and the team to concentrate on beating Williams, McLaren and then Renault.

Its similar to when Heikki moved over to let Hamilton through at Germany. It was painstakingly obvious that Hamilton was much quicker and would eventually get past Heikki anyway, but to make Hamilton's and McLaren's lives easier, it was best to let Hamilton through and let him attack Massa and Piquet. Most teams operate in this way, in that if 1 driver is much much faster, he will eventually be "waived" through as the team doesnt want 2 drivers to take eachother out. In the case of Honda say, Barrichello and Button are so very very close, you cant really waive either of them through. In the case of Hamilton and Heikki, the gap is huge, it would be stupid not to have Hamilton waived past.

Remember, the fight is with other teams, not with your own team mate. I think you seem to be missing this point.
 
I hope Heikki comes either 1st or 2nd, I'll be really disappointed otherwise :(

He has to hold off some fast guys behind him on a track impossible to pass on... should be easy.

Although, he does have to pit, and that involves McLaren making tactics, which, as we have seen, probubly means hell finish 7th or something.
 
Bets on whether Hamilton will be compared to Senna?

Bets on him being compared to Schumi?

I hope Heikki comes either 1st or 2nd, I'll be really disappointed otherwise :(

He really should finish on the podium at the very least. I can't see him winning with Lewis on form, and both Massa and Kimi have said they made mistakes on their qualy runs, so it could be an interesting race.
Wait, but this is Hungary where no one can pass...
 
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Bets on whether Hamilton will be compared to Senna?

Unquestionably.

God bless the mute button :D

On another note I would like your opinion on the following.

So far Heikki has been outqualified by his team mate every race bar one I think.

Hes started a race on pole and still managed to end up behind Raikonnen, let alone his own team mate who won the race.

People seem to be having pot shots at Raikonnen/Massa and even Hamilton earlier on in the season, surely Kovalainnen should be under scrutiny?

Personally, if Im Ron and thinking about the constructors championship as well as the drivers championship, surely I would be telling Kovalainnen to pull his finger out?

What do you all think?
 
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