Audi A3 HiD kit?

[Dandle]

No it's not - but it's easier to say 'you must have projectors' because in terms of retrofitting, this is 100% true.



But they have modified, specially designed reflector setups which counteract any beam scatter. A halogen fitted car WONT have these, so for all intents and purposes this is irrelevent - if you want to retrofit Xenons you need projectors, if you've got suitable reflectors you will also already have Xenons from the factory, making this irrelevent.

Not all projector lenses are approved for xenon lights though, if you take your attitude to it any approved projector lens would already have xenons fitted. Take for instance your E39 the light unit for a xenon equiped E39 is totally different to the light unit you have fitted a HID kit to, even though its a projector unit.

 

[[TW]Fox]

But the way a Projector projects light beams onto the road is such that fitting HID to them results in a neat, legal and safe beam. The same cannot be said of reflectors, which is my point. Any reflector that was not specifically designed for use with Xenons - ie 99% of them - will refract light all over the place. The same is not true of Projectors.

The Xenon light unit on the E39 is not totally different to the Halogen one either on facelift models - they are virtually identical, infact. It's a common modification amongst owners of OEM Xenons to buy replacement Halogen angel eyes and use them to repair damaged/cracked/pitted lenses/projectors on their cars.

 

[Dandle]

But the way a Projector projects light beams onto the road is such that fitting HID to them results in a neat, legal and safe beam. The same cannot be said of reflectors, which is my point. Any reflector that was not specifically designed for use with Xenons - ie 99% of them - will refract light all over the place. The same is not true of Projectors.

But a projector lens that isnt approved isnt legal, no manufacturer makes a halogen projector that "E" marked as the fitments are different. I get your point that the beam is better but they are still just as wrong.

 

[[TW]Fox]

It's as illegal and damaging as not having a postcode on a numberplate which is completely different from the situation of having Xenons fitted to reflector headlights. They are not 'just as wrong' at all. Not by a long shot. Infact you cannot tell the difference between an OEM and Retrofit setup on most cars of this type.

The projector lense itself is, however, E marked.

 

[Dandle]

It's as illegal and damaging as not having a postcode on a numberplate which is completely different from the situation of having Xenons fitted to reflector headlights. They are not 'just as wrong' at all. Not by a long shot. Infact you cannot tell the difference between an OEM and Retrofit setup on most cars of this type.

The projector lense itself is, however, E marked.

You sure BMW approved a non xenon unit for xenon use?

 

[[TW]Fox]

You said they were not E marked. There is an E mark on them

Do you dispute that a HID setup retrofitted into projector lights is a completely different situation to doing the same with reflectors? If so, I cannot understand why. I really don't understand what point you are trying to make. From a safety and performance point of view there is no issue. Ok, perhaps it technically infringes construction and use regs but only in the same way a numberplate without a postcode does.

It's a completely different situation to fitting them to reflector lights. Completely different.

As you appear to know so much, perhaps you could explain the exact difference between an E39/E60 Halogen and Xenon projector? You can even mount the ballasts onto the unit using the OEM bracketing!

 

[Dandle]

You said they were not E marked.

Now your being petty, you know theres different "E" markings and theres one for the use of HID light in a light unit.

 

[[TW]Fox]

What practical difference does that make from a safety and performance point of view?

 

[Dandle]

You said they were not E marked. There is an E mark on them

Do you dispute that a HID setup retrofitted into projector lights is a completely different situation to doing the same with reflectors? If so, I cannot understand why. I really don't understand what point you are trying to make. From a safety and performance point of view there is no issue. Ok, perhaps it technically infringes construction and use regs but only in the same way a numberplate without a postcode does.

It's a completely different situation to fitting them to reflector lights. Completely different

I dont need to justify it, the DOT say its wrong and doesnt mention what lenses you have fitted.

As you appear to know so much, perhaps you could explain the exact difference between an E39/E60 Halogen and Xenon projector? You can even mount the ballasts onto the unit using the OEM bracketing!

All i can mention for the E60/61 is there is no projector lens fitted to the cars without xenon lghts, unlike the E39.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I dont need to justify it

Well you kinda do, given you posted it as your opinion. I'm not interested in the technical aspects of vague bits of legislation, I'm interested in practical safety and performance differences. Which it remains my opinion that there are none, unless reflectors are used. It is as 'illegal' as not having 'BS AU 145d' on the corner of your numberplate.

Oh and FWIW..

In the Department's view

As we can see, that is merely their intepretation of the statute. Until there is case law to back it up it remains just that - their view. An opinion. Not legally binding. They are infact relying on the fact that the RTA has not been updated with reference to lighting since 1988 - before HID's - to argue their case. Until this is tested in a court of law it remains conjecture.

All i can mention for the E60/61 is there is no projector lens fitted to the cars without xenon lghts, unlike the E39.

Well on the E39 the light units are identical in every way. The actual headlight unit is the same and the 'halogen' ones will fit OEM mounting brackets etc.

I don't really see how you can claim both units are completely different if you've not looked at both units?

 

[OllyM]

The only difference between OEM HID equipped cars is the fact that the OEM cars have D2S HID bulb holders and a sticker warning about danger and 10000v on the E39. The rest of the light fitting is identical in every way.

 

[Dandle]

Well on the E39 the light units are identical in every way. The actual headlight unit is the same and the 'halogen' ones will fit OEM mounting brackets etc.

I don't really see how you can claim both units are completely different if you've not looked at both units?

Because they fit the same body style doesnt mean they are the same, otherwise BMW have really buggered up givingtwo of the same light units different part numbers.

 

[[TW]Fox]

The only difference between OEM HID equipped cars is the fact that the OEM cars have D2S HID bulb holders and a sticker warning about danger and 10000v on the E39. The rest of the light fitting is identical in every way.

Thank you, glad its not just me. I've no idea what the situation is for other cars but this is the case for the E39. Same lights whether you have Xenons or Halogens. Therefore not exactly like fitting a cheap chinese HID kit to an Escort. Infact, not anything like it.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Because they fit the same body style doesnt mean they are the same, otherwise BMW have really buggered up givingtwo of the same light units different part numbers.

They've got two different part numbers because they are supplied as a package including bulb holders, which are of course different depending on whether you have OEM HID or not.

Have you ever purchased E39 headlights and seen how they arrive and whats included?

Didn't think so.

 

[Dandle]

Thank you, glad its not just me. I've no idea what the situation is for other cars but this is the case for the E39. Same lights whether you have Xenons or Halogens. Therefore not exactly like fitting a cheap chinese HID kit to an Escort. Infact, not anything like it.

Nothing like it at all but still not legal.

The only difference between OEM HID equipped cars is the fact that the OEM cars have D2S HID bulb holders and a sticker warning about danger and 10000v on the E39. The rest of the light fitting is identical in every way.

Thats my point they arent the same units and as such not approved for HIDS.

 

[OllyM]

But.. they are the same units. They even have the same markings stamped on them and everything. Have you ever actually compared the two side by side?

 

[[TW]Fox]

Nothing like it at all but still not legal.

But only as 'illegal' as my numberplate example.

Thats my point they arent the same units and as such not approved for HIDS.

They are not the same package on the BMW parts computer - the actual physical headlight unit itself is the same, but as you cannot buy a physical headlight itself devoid of bulb holders, stickers etc the fact they have different part number is not relevant.

Whats likely to be more accurate - you, presumably using RealOEM to look it up, or Olly/myself who have fitted/replaced/removed these headlights (Yes, the entire assembly) and directly compared them to the OEM unit on Petes M5? Even the electronic levelling unit is the same within the headlights, only the external control method for this differs.

It wouldn't even make commercial sense to have two different types of main light unit when one will suffice. The 'expensive' part of the OEM Xenon system is not the light unit/projector but the ballast and bulbs, which are seperate anyway!

 

[Dandle]

But only as 'illegal' as my numberplate example.




They are not the same package on the BMW parts computer - the actual physical headlight unit itself is the same, but as you cannot buy a physical headlight itself devoid of bulb holders, stickers etc the fact they have different part number is not relevant.

Whats likely to be more accurate - you, presumably using RealOEM to look it up, or Olly/myself who have fitted/replaced/removed these headlights (Yes, the entire assembly) and directly compared them to the OEM unit on Petes M5? Even the electronic levelling unit is the same within the headlights, only the external control method for this differs.

It wouldn't even make commercial sense to have two different types of main light unit when one will suffice. The 'expensive' part of the OEM Xenon system is not the light unit/projector but the ballast and bulbs, which are seperate anyway!

It doesnt matter the fact that your car doesn't comply with the requirements for a vehicle with xenon lights and although they are better than reflector fitted hid kits they are still not legal and compliant. In theory they are no more right than anyone else fitting hids. Thats what I am getting at. The fact is you have fitted aftermarket hids yet yours are ok in your eyes due to the lenses yet for anyone else its a big no-no unless they comply to your rules and not the DOTs.

 

[[TW]Fox]

But theory doesn't matter when in practice they are the same as the OEM fitted projectors so therefore just as safe. The only 'wrong' thing about them is suspect comformance to bits of legislation never tested in court

Ignoring legality, the actual 'oily bits' are the same. Which is my point.

The legal stuff is purely a technicality - what matters is whether they are safe for road use, which of course being the same as the OEM setup, they are. That they don't technically confirm to a peice of a legislation last updated a decade before HID's started appearing on any scale is not something many people will lose sleep over. As I pointed out, the DOT advise is merely THEIR UNDERSTANDING of the law and is based on the ASSUMPTION that *all* Hid's are technically illegal as they are not specifically mentioned in the 1988 RTA. Until there is a test case, this is merely conjecture.

The right or wrong discussed in this thread was not from a legal piont of view it was from a safety and performance point of view. The bottom line is that generally, projector = safe, reflector = beam scatter and thus not safe.

Bed time, goodnight

 

[Dandle]

But theory doesn't matter when in practice they are the same as the OEM fitted projectors so therefore just as safe. The only 'wrong' thing about them is suspect comformance to bits of legislation never tested in court

Ignoring legality, the actual 'oily bits' are the same. Which is my point.

The legal stuff is purely a technicality - what matters is whether they are safe for road use, which of course being the same as the OEM setup, they are. That they don't technically confirm to a peice of a legislation last updated a decade before HID's started appearing on any scale is not something many people will lose sleep over. As I pointed out, the DOT advise is merely THEIR UNDERSTANDING of the law and is based on the ASSUMPTION that *all* Hid's are technically illegal as they are not specifically mentioned in the 1988 RTA. Until there is a test case, this is merely conjecture.

The right or wrong discussed in this thread was not from a legal piont of view it was from a safety and performance point of view. The bottom line is that generally, projector = safe, reflector = beam scatter and thus not safe.

Bed time, goodnight

Night