What's Miliband playing at..?

Fothsn · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:04

bam0 said:
Yes, and I can say it in English too.

Okay let me add a little input,

According to 2007 CIA estimates, the UK has the second largest military expenditure in the world, after the United States. It is also the second largest spender on military science, engineering and technology.[40] Despite Britain's wide ranging capabilities, recent defence policy has a stated assumption that any large operation would be undertaken as part of a coalition. Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan (Herrick), Iraq (Granby, Desert Fox and Telic) may all be taken as precedent – indeed the last large scale military action in which the British armed forces fought alone was the Falklands War of 1982.

The Royal Navy is the second largest navy in the world in terms of gross tonnage, with 90 commissioned ships. The Naval Service (which comprises the Royal Navy and Royal Marines) had a strength of 35,470 in July 2006[41] and is charged with custody of the United Kingdom's strategic nuclear deterrent consisting of four Trident missile submarines, while the Royal Marines provide commando units for amphibious assault and for specialist reinforcement forces in and beyond the NATO area. According to the same source, the British Army had a strength of 100,010, while the Royal Air Force had a strength of 45,210. This puts the total number of regular Armed Forces personnel at 180,690 (not including civilians), nine percent of whom were women. This number is supported by reserve forces, including over 35,000 from the Territorial Army. The total number of serving personnel, including reserve forces, is therefore in the region of 225,000 (taking into account Navy, Marines and Air Force reserves).

We are a big player in Nato, now tell me the UK doesn’t have any power on the world stage? To say India has more power is quite frankly laughable.

Jono8 · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:07

not to mention America's military budget is 10 times more than Russia's whilst using a lower percentage of its overall wealth:

an interesting read:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...9/Analysis-Should-we-fear-a-new-Cold-War.html

and yes the UK's armed forces is still one of the strongest in the world.

magick · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:13

Jono8 said:
not to mention America's military budget is 10 times more than Russia's whilst using a lower percentage of its overall wealth:

But for how much longer? There economy is going down the pan. And they don't have the massive supplies of oil/gas like russia and they don't have the cheap slave labour of china.

Domo · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:13

Ben M said:
he's the foreign secretary... he can't exactly not say anything about it, can he?

I don't think its within his jurisdiction to form a coalition against 'Russian aggression'. I don't think he should be spewing out all this rhetoric bravado - warning Russia not to start a new cold war.
He just doesn't seem right for the job + his lack of statesman like quality is all to obvious.

He's like a yapping terrier snapping at the ankle.

Jono8 · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:17

magick said:
But for how much longer? There economy is going down the pan. And they don't have the massive supplies of oil/gas like russia and they don't have the cheap slave labour of china.

At the same time though, Russia's economy would collapse should it be rejected from international trade organistions and have sanctions put on it by the international community.

magick · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:18

Jono8 said:
At the same time though, Russia's economy would collapse should it be rejected from international trade organistions and have sanctions put on it by the international community.

Russia could get along just fine without US/Europe. It can sell it's resources to china/brazil/india.

Von Smallhausen · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:19

bam0 said:
When will Britain realise that it's a tiny little insignificant country with no clout in the international community anymore, hell that's what NATO and the EU are for, a way to exert power as a group that will be listened to.

Britain has massive clout on the international stage and has punched above it's weight for many years.

As rightly pointed out, it is a member of NATO, the UN Security Council and G8 which does not indicate insignificance.

Jono8 · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:23

magick said:
Russia could get along just fine without US/Europe. It can sell it's resources to china/brazil/india.

You seriously think russia would be ok if it was thrown out of the international trading community it is in now?

Just from the last few weeks, investors and the like have started pulling out of russia showing billions lost in currency reserves.

and why do you think China will side with Russia.. :confused:

?

magick · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:28

Jono8 said:
You seriously think russia would be ok if it was thrown out of the international trading community it is in now?

To a large degree yes. Because it has what the rest of the world wants.

Jono8 said:
and why do you think China will side with Russia..?

Because strategicaly better for them. There's a loose alliance forming between China, Russia and Brazil.

EDIT : and if we throw Russia out of 'the international trading community' we're in for a very cold winter when they switch our gas supplies off.

Fothsn · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:33

magick said:
To a large degree yes. Because it has what the rest of the world wants.

Because strategicaly better for them. There's a loose alliance forming between China, Russia and Brazil.

EDIT : and if we throw Russia out of 'the international trading community' we're in for a very cold winter when they switch our gas supplies off.

We have other means to source supplies, we don’t solely rely on Russia if we did well frankly we would be very stupid.

Russia wouldn’t survive outsider international trading; Brazil etc hardly spend the kind of money the USA and UK do.

Domo · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:33

Jono8 said:
..and why do you think China will side with Russia..?

Must admit, its a little unsettling Medvedev discussed the situation in the Caucasus with his Chinese counterpart Hu Jintao. China have yet to comment.

Jono8 · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:34

magick said:
To a large degree yes. Because it has what the rest of the world wants.

Because strategicaly better for them. There's a loose alliance forming between China, Russia and Brazil.

EDIT : and if we throw Russia out of 'the international trading community' we're in for a very cold winter when they switch our gas supplies off.

Your going on if's and but's.

The fact is, that America's economy is 14 times that of Russia's and the Nato alliance is far more concrete than that of Russia and central asia.

If you ask me, Russia's confrontional approach at the moment is only going to shoot them in the foot.

Jono8 · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:34

Fothsn said:
We have other means to source supplies, we don’t solely rely on Russia if we did well frankly we would be very stupid.

Russia wouldn’t survive outsider international trading; Brazil etc hardly spend the kind of money the USA and UK do.

exactly. If Russia was excluded from major international trading it would cripple their economy.

Fothsn · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:36

Jono8 said:
Your going on if's and but's.

The fact is, that America's economy is 14 times that of Russia's and the Nato alliance is far more concrete than that of Russia and central asia.

If you ask me, Russia's confrontional approach at the moment is only going to shoot them in the foot.

My thoughts as well Russia are going the wrong way very quickly and its only going to impact them on a negative scale.

magick · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:39

Domo said:
Must admit, its a little unsettling Medvedev discussed the situation in the Caucasus with his Chinese counterpart Hu Jintao. China have yet to comment.

My guess is China, in private at least, are giving them moral support.

China and Russia already work closely together to keep western business/interests out of places like Kazakstan, Uzbekestan and Kyrgstan.

Beansprout · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:43

Can someone explain how India's army is better than ours? I'm loving the British attitude of putting ourselves down! Both in this thread and the Olympics thread.

Honestly, if half the armchair twits who constantly deride their country had visited poorer, less fortunate parts of the world then perhaps their viewpoint would be changed

Slight OT though. On topic: Miliband looked like a kid when he was talking earlier today. Still, though, they have a point in that Russia can't invade and take back Soviet-era territories. But likewise, annoying Russia wasn't exactly the best move for Georgia :/

magick · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:45

Beansprout said:
Still, though, they have a point in that Russia can't invade and take back Soviet-era territories. But likewise, annoying Russia wasn't exactly the best move for Georgia :/

Agreed, but are we in any poistion to lecture about invading countries after Iraq?

bigredshark · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:46

Beansprout said:
Thanks for the excellent summary. It's a shame most news sources can't write so objectively.

Only it's not, it fails to mention any number of things, like the fact the russians were dishing out passports like candy in the last few years. Most russian citizens in the disputed areas have become so in the last 5 years. It ignores the long standing disputes between russia and georgia (not to mention the ludicrous unsuitability of russia as a peacekeeper in the conflict).

I'm all for summary's, providing they tell both sides.

Fothsn · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:47

Beansprout said:
Can someone explain how India's army is better than ours? I'm loving the British attitude of putting ourselves down! Both in this thread and the Olympics thread.

Honestly, if half the armchair twits who constantly deride their country had visited poorer, less fortunate parts of the world then perhaps their viewpoint would be changed

Slight OT though. On topic: Miliband looked like a kid when he was talking earlier today. Still, though, they have a point in that Russia can't invade and take back Soviet-era territories. But likewise, annoying Russia wasn't exactly the best move for Georgia :/

Your guess is as good as mine, quite laughable that the guy believes India has more power on the world stage than us, no disrespect to India but they haven’t got a patch on UK forces.

Beansprout · 27 Aug 2008 at 23:49

bigredshark said:
Only it's not, it fails to mention any number of things, like the fact the russians were dishing out passports like candy in the last few years. Most russian citizens in the disputed areas have become so in the last 5 years. It ignores the long standing disputes between russia and georgia (not to mention the ludicrous unsuitability of russia as a peacekeeper in the conflict).

I'm all for summary's, providing they tell both sides.

Fortunately I already knew those bits

It's cheeky of Russia to tell Georgia it can't harm its citizens...when they're only Russians because Russia made them so. Sigh