Deaths in Gaza - Use of Israeli Force
- Thread starter Doran
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SWAT tend to employ those tactics to resolve hostage situations or criminal events, not to get into civilians houses who have done nothing wrong apart from live in a Palestinian refugee camp.
How do you arrest them? You work with the law enforcement officials within Gaza, who are policemen not Hamas terrorists. Hamas is a political organisation as well as a terrorist group (much like the IRA/Sinn Fein). Civil authority is how to best organise counterterrorism and civil-stability - as can be seen from EULEX in Kosovo (although not terrorism, rather ethnic conflict resolution). You can't wholesale arrest an elected government just because you don't agree with them, that goes against the UN provisions for self-determination and non-intervention.
I think I can quite happily support his use of the terms unreasonable and disproportionate. Would you have supported the UK government bombing Sinn Fein headquarters in a heavily populated area of Dublin during the Troubles? That's pretty comparable. As a sovereign (purportedly democratic) state you cannot act with such indiscriminate force against civilians. You also cannot destroy the civil police authority of another territory in the eyes of international law.
Israel has consistently acted outside of international law, particularly in continuing the building of the apartheid wall and going against ICJ rulings on both the wall and settlements.
As is the Palestinian right of return in UN resolution 194.
Because its not like negotiation is the first step towards conflict resolution, or any breakthrough negotiations like the Good Friday agreement...
There seems to be a lot of speculation on this from people who have virtually no idea what they're talking about (I know it's GD lol).
Freefaller - out of interest, where in Palestine have you been?
Soldato
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A bullet will kill whether it comes from an aged AK-47 clone built in Iran and smuggled over the border or from an Israeli built Tavor fresh off the assembly line, what's your point? Believe it or not those mortar bombs and Qassam rockets being fired into Israel can and will kill, and one day they'll do so bigtime, such as landing in a school playground or a packed shopping centre. So what are you saying? Israel should let the Palestinians get a couple of 'free shots' in to make up for the disparity in weaponry? Perhaps you'd be wise to heed your own advice.
Note: Before I'm accused of being some kind of Zionist/Islamophobe, please bear in mind that I don't condone Israel's use of 'Shock & Oy Vey' as I've been calling it either. It's clearly disproportional use of force, and as usual those to suffer are the innocents on both sides caught in the middle, and not those pulling the strings and orchestrating all of this.
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that makes no sense.
I entirely agree. Their right of return is sacrosanct, and must be respected.
However, they must understand that their right of return does not give them the right to claim ownership of Israel on the basis of religious belief.
Of course they don't. The point being made is simply that the Palestinians are not defenceless.
totally agree
I've been pro Palestinan all my life - what's your problem? Just because unlike the UK I don't bend over when America asks, which also is the main funder of the nation of Israel. I just hate how it's always the Palestinians that are put in bad light, and I'm fed up of Israel being victimised when they clearly are not the victims.
Have you ever been there? I have and I've seen with my own eyes what they have to put up with.
We'll just have to disagree, and I'm so wound up I'm going for a walk. I loathe, despise and hate the Israelis and what they stand for, as a nation, a close friend of mine is Israeli (he says, he can't help where he was born) but he agrees that his nation is frankly, a bully and milks the "victim card" for all it's worth. And it's working
I would say other things with regards to your post but I'd have to ban myself.
couldnt have said it better. And like yourself you cant really get deep into this without starting arguements and banning of people (been banned from other forums for this subject, cos im a nazi or something......
)
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My experience (and I can only speak to what I've seen and who I've spoken to) is that most Palestinians simply want the right to consider the land that has been theirs for generations as their own, not to turn Israelis out wholesale. The problem is that Palestinians are seen as second class citizens within Israel (this is no more obvious than the number of stop and searches of Palestinians in Jerusalem and the treatment of Palestinians at El Ibrahimi Mosque in Hebron).
In that respect the most accurate comparison really is South African apartheid. I know that may sound really extreme to people who haven't seen the living conditions in Israel or Palestine, but I found it truly horrifying that no international outcry is present to the (arguably limited) extent there is with Darfur.
I personally couldn't live with the constant threat of administrative detention, go without running water for up to 40 days or risk imprisonment for going outside to buy food for my family during curfews sometimes lasting days. That coupled with the fact that you could come home to find your home bulldozed and have to pay for its demolition...
How can anyone stick up for palestine? They have been firing rockets into Israel.....
Israel retaliate, and so they should. The disparity between their weapon tech is a mute point in this case. Can't believe someone has argued that its not so much of a big deal because palestine weaponry is innacurate and firing randomly! Ha!
I would like to add at this point that I think they are both largely as bad as each other. However ,you cannot criticise Israeli retaliation after Hamas broke the truce and launched attacks on israeli territory....
Israel retaliate, and so they should. The disparity between their weapon tech is a mute point in this case. Can't believe someone has argued that its not so much of a big deal because palestine weaponry is innacurate and firing randomly! Ha!
I would like to add at this point that I think they are both largely as bad as each other. However ,you cannot criticise Israeli retaliation after Hamas broke the truce and launched attacks on israeli territory....
well why would they use artillery when they can carpet bomb cities from 10000feet?
Soldato
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Because artillery shells are vastly cheaper to use over precision guided weaponry like laser or GPS guided bombs. What's your point, or do you even have one?
tefal was askin why dont they just use artillery and im sayin why, because its safer to carpet bomb from a plane.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/letters/articles/2008/12/28/what_is_israel_trying_to_hide/ said:
Mdv2 said:A couple of weeks ago a Dutch TV crew was also denied access to the Gaza strip by the IDF. Secretly, they went into Gaza and witnessed themselves what is happening. They filmed a hospital in which newly born babies are dying as a consequence of power fall outs. The Gaza power plant does not receive enough fuel to provide Gaza, and thus the hospital, with constant power supply.
Some on this forum have said ''It is Hamas that broke the truce'' and they are to blame, not Israel.
Although there cannot be a reason to justify violence against innocent civilians like Hamas has done, I do understand their desperation. Before Hamas broke the truce, the Gaza strip had already been sealed for months. Fruits and other kind of foods which were cultivated for export are forcefully sold on local markets against a loss. Most of the corporations in Gaza have filed bankruptcy long time ago. (Food) prices have skyrocketed and food stocks are extremely low.
Consequently, 80% of the Gazans is dependent on food and medical aid and the average income is $2,- a day way too little to pay a family's meal.
Some on this forum have said: they are smuggling in weapons, so I don't feel sorry for them. You must be seriously retarded to think that people spend their $2,- on weapons rather than on food for their children. Every person with an average IQ could understand that these people spend their $2 on smuggled food and in some cases medicines. Of course, weapons are smuggled into Gaza, but it is Hamas and other terrorist network which smuggle weapons.
We, the world, are not allowed to see what is happening. And if Israel is really so honest as they pretend to be, they should allow reporters to go in there and let them witness themselves what is happening, rather than censoring the news.
One more thing. The US strongly advocated free elections in Palestine. The Palestinians elected Hamas, which made the US decide to immediately cut off all aid. Hamas proposed a new peace deal in which Israel would return to the borders of 1967 , but Israel immediately turned down that idea. In other words, Israel did not even give peace a chance.
Once again, I do not advocate their use of violence, but with no freedom to move, no fair chance to build a country, there will never be peace.
Consensus is the key. We have seen what 8 years Bush and no talking to ''enemies'' has done, like Iran. It further isolated them, increasing the risk of terrorist attacks.
Although I would once again like to stress I condemn the use of violence against innocent civilians, one Israeli has died so far while over 200 Palestinians have died. That response is, like Sarkozy said, disproportionate, or like one ex prime minister of the Netherlands said: a war crime.
Could someone distinguish the difference between a concentration camp and Gaza? Could someone explain me why refusing people foreign aid and starve them to death is any better than what the Nazi's did to the Jews in Europe?
The whole world sees what is going, yet America is turning a blind eye to Israel's disproportionate response. During the Lebanon - Israel war, thousands of innocent civilians died because two soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah not by the Lebanese government. What makes them, the Israeli government, less terroristic than Hamas?
Original source:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread422665/pg1
Man of Honour
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I do hope one day that a viable Palestinian state is achieved because I would jum o at the chance to have a secondment there as part of a police training programme through the FO, EU or UN.
Perhaps you'd like to explain just how it's possible to carpet bomb with an F-16? Then again, perhaps you'd be better off going and looking up the definition of "carpet bombing" first.
Using ATS as a source, are you having a laugh?