Karen Matthews guilty!!

[Tefal]

Err... no. That's a gross oversimplification.

Ogf course it;s over simplification, otherwise I would have had to write a ****ing essay.

So good that there were 17 attempts on his life during the war years.

So good he got elected.

Plus the war of course created far more complicated terms, as evean said to use either of our arguments would be gross oversimplification.

 

[Edinho]

Orchestrating the kidnap of your own child is evil.

Even if they are going to be well looking after and you have it in their interest. Look at it from thier point of view. Shannon is off school for 6 months, they get £50,000, she been looked after the same (as bad) as she was at home, she goes back to school. Im guessing shes not the brightest kid hardly going to miss those 6 months. Is that evil? Not imo

 

[Von Smallhausen]

So good he got elected.

No he didn't. His Nazi Party got a large share of votes in the Reichstag in the 1932 elections but this did not elect Adolf Hitler to power.

On the back of that popularity, Hitler made demands to President von Hindenburg that he be elected Chancellor which was initially refused.

Hindenburg gave in eventually and in 1933 Hitler was appointed Chancellor. Soon after that a powerless legislature, on Hitler's demand, passed the Enabling Law, cementing his position as a dictator.

In short, Adolf Hitler was never himself voted in as Chancellor.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Even if they are going to be well looking after and you have it in their interest. Look at it from thier point of view. Shannon is off school for 6 months, they get £50,000, she been looked after the same (as bad) as she was at home, she goes back to school. Im guessing shes not the brightest kid hardly going to miss those 6 months. Is that evil? Not imo

We may have to disagree there.

 

[dirtydog]

I just did a search for 'Matthews' and haven't found a new thread discussing the sentencing which occurred yesterday.

The family of Karen Matthews say she should have been given a longer jail sentence for kidnapping her daughter.

Karen Matthews, 33, and her co-accused Michael Donovan, 40, were both jailed for eight years on Friday for the kidnap of Shannon Matthews last year.

Matthews' cousin Susan Howgate told BBC News: "When I heard she'd got eight years I couldn't believe it - I was expecting her to get 20 years.

"It's disgusting. She should have got more for what she did to her daughter."

Ms Howgate said she had discussed the sentencing with her son and mother and they all felt a longer term should have been handed down.

Shannon, who is now 10, was found at Donovan's flat in Batley Carr, West Yorkshire, last March after being held there for 24 days.

Matthews and Donovan were found guilty of kidnap, false imprisonment and perverting the course of justice.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/7848814.stm

I dunno, eight years seems like a fair sentence to me? They did a bad and stupid thing, but it isn't as if they've committed rape or murder so I think calling for 20 years is OTT.

 

[Spie]

I just did a search for 'Matthews' and haven't found a new thread discussing the sentencing which occurred yesterday.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/7848814.stm

I dunno, eight years seems like a fair sentence to me? They did a bad and stupid thing, but it isn't as if they've committed rape or murder so I think calling for 20 years is OTT.

I agree. But what will they really serve? 4 max?

 

[LordSplodge]

They are Northern - isn't that the same?

Oi!

Just goes to show you need to be middle class to get away with it

Agreed. Middle class, nice looking kid, intelligent parents and everything is OK!

 

[moon man]

They both seem stupid rather than evil, to me looking from afar. They did an evil thing but how much we should condemn them, I don't know.

I know one of the chaps at new hall and thats his veiw of matthews not evil just very stupid

 

[dirtydog]

I agree. But what will they really serve? 4 max?

I reckon yeah Although I think they will face a lot of hostility from the 'mob' when they are released. Will they be able to live anywhere, under their own identity and not be harassed or attacked?

 

[Spie]

I reckon yeah Although I think they will face a lot of hostility from the 'mob' when they are released. Will they be able to live anywhere, under their own identity and not be harassed or attacked?

They will be given new identities and protected at the taxpayer's expense no doubt.

 

[Super Tigers]

They won't even serve 4 years, as they were held on remand then this will come off the overall total. I suspect Karen Matthews will get a new identity when she comes out of prison due to the notoriety and profile of the case. The child will also get a lot of help, new identity and a new life. I cannot see Karen Matthews ever seeing her again.

 

[Edinho]

Its a sad case really. An indication of the acute problems in deprived areas. The judge was right in saying that she did wrong but was no Myra Hindley. Its going to be hell in prison for her tbh.

 

[dirtydog]

I agree.

 

[Marky]

8 years is not enough really... she'll probably be out in 4...

Although like Edinho said, they will make it hell in prison for her no doubt about it!

 

[dirtydog]

Even four years in prison is a long time, given that she didn't harm (or intend to harm) the girl. She is guilty of being of low intelligence and of making stupid and bad decisions but to jail someone for more than four years for that would in my view be harsh. Both defendants are not so much bad people as pathetic people - and deserve pity more than scorn. Let them serve their time, be released and then leave them alone to live their lives in peace IMO. I know that won't happen though.

 

[Walter Sobchak]

Sentence way to short for the ****!

 

[drunkenmaster]

one question though, they plead not guilty, they haven't actually said they did it let alone what they intended to do.

Just because there was money around, looking at other situations, there might have been more sympathy, more attention and possibly more money if the kid was never found. Also keeping in mind that when the kid was "found" she would clearly have been questioned and could easily let slip what happened, if infact the kid didn't tell them what happened immediately.

SO basically, how do we know they didn't intend to kill her at a later date once the initial press interest died down a little and they could sneak her out at some point, kill her somewhere, then hope either she isn't found and they get a nice big fund like the McCanns to feed off for years?

Surely, locking the kid up, tying her up and drugging her the kid wasn't a willing participant, so why wouldn't the kid tell the cops what happened after they released then found her. I can't see that making any sense, the woman clearly doesn't care for her kid as obviously all her emotion on camera begging for her back was fake, and no person who truly cares for their kid would drug and tie them up, its basically torture. Relatively speaking it would make more sense to kill the kid and go for a McCann style money setup, than let the kid go and get caught out pretty easily.


Infact it almost makes sense, when you kill someone, theirs generally evidence, blood spatter you miss, evidence of excessive cleaning, someone seeing you do it, trip out to the woods that people might see you which all raises questions.

If you kidnap the kid with the intention of killing her later, all the initial evidence when they first thing it might be family, won't show anything as nothing has actually happened yet. Then you kill her at a later date when everyones already finished looking for evidence and are busy looking for the kid rather than watching the parents.

 

[dirtydog]

SO basically, how do we know they didn't intend to kill her at a later date

They intended to let her be 'found' and then claim the £50k reward. If they killed her then it would defeat the whole point of their plan. I know the kid could have told the police the truth but as we've established in this thread, Matthews and Michael Donovan are as thick as two short planks.

 

[drunkenmaster]

They intended to let her be 'found' and then claim the £50k reward. If they killed her then it would defeat the whole point of their plan. I know the kid could have told the police the truth but as we've established in this thread, Matthews and Michael Donovan are as thick as two short planks.

What 50k reward, who says they would have gotten it, who says thats what their plan was. If the McCann story somewhat inspired them, surely finding the kid limits what they can get, while if they had the same situation as the McCann's, a fund with FAR more than 50k in it so they can go around looking for their kid would be a far bigger draw to them wouldn't it.

If they killed the kid in the future it would, stop any possibility the kid will tell on them, and open up the possibility of a lot more than 50k, how do we know they were going for the 50k. If they find the kid, the chance of more than 50k goes out the window.

Even if they claimed they were going for the 50k, at this point, caught, its the least evil thing they could claim to have been doing.

Aswell as the whole thing, so they release the kid, where would the do it, how would they make sure they were the only ones there, how would they explain how they happened to be where the kid was released and how could they make sure they were the ones that found her. Drive her in the boot somewhere, ditch her, obviously have to get away from the car they brought her in and get to wherever it is in some other way so as not to seem too obvious. In other words, theres not a single way they could get that 50k at all.

The kids picture is all over the paper, say Donovan releases her at one end of a shopping centre, and Karen is on the other side, theres a couple thousand people that could "find" her and get the reward before Karen could. If they did it somewhere not busy with no one around, its ridiculously suspicious, the only thing that makes any sense to me, is they were going to kill her later on and go for the grieving parents sympathy give us some money thing, or if the body isn't found, play the McCann card and try to get sponsorship to "find" their kid, taking holidays around the world.

 

[dirtydog]

What 50k reward, who says they would have gotten it, who says thats what their plan was. If the McCann story somewhat inspired them, surely finding the kid limits what they can get, while if they had the same situation as the McCann's, a fund with FAR more than 50k in it so they can go around looking for their kid would be a far bigger draw to them wouldn't it.

If they killed the kid in the future it would, stop any possibility the kid will tell on them, and open up the possibility of a lot more than 50k, how do we know they were going for the 50k. If they find the kid, the chance of more than 50k goes out the window.

Even if they claimed they were going for the 50k, at this point, caught, its the least evil thing they could claim to have been doing.

Aswell as the whole thing, so they release the kid, where would the do it, how would they make sure they were the only ones there, how would they explain how they happened to be where the kid was released and how could they make sure they were the ones that found her. Drive her in the boot somewhere, ditch her, obviously have to get away from the car they brought her in and get to wherever it is in some other way so as not to seem too obvious. In other words, theres not a single way they could get that 50k at all.

The kids picture is all over the paper, say Donovan releases her at one end of a shopping centre, and Karen is on the other side, theres a couple thousand people that could "find" her and get the reward before Karen could. If they did it somewhere not busy with no one around, its ridiculously suspicious, the only thing that makes any sense to me, is they were going to kill her later on and go for the grieving parents sympathy give us some money thing, or if the body isn't found, play the McCann card and try to get sponsorship to "find" their kid, taking holidays around the world.

Why didn't they just kill her immediately then? No chance of her being found (if they hid her body well enough) and no chance of their deceit being discovered.

I know their plan was harebrained but their intelligence is very low. Did you hear about when Donovan was a driver and his boss asked him to fill his van up with petrol? We're talking breathtaking idiocy here.