Diesel cash guzzlers: It can take 28 years for them to be cost-effective

there are separate arguments for fleet vehicles vs private sales.

for fleets the cars are only usually kept for 2-3 years and tend to do high mileage. in this case diesels tend to make sense, low tax, better fuel consumption, similar maintenance costs and slightly higer residuals with the downsides of higher initial costs. the initial costs are usually less than for private buyers with fleet discounts so the difference is smaller.

for private buyers then the numbers are more complicated. annual mileage varies, length of time keeping the vehicles varies and there is also buying second hand to be included.
the injector and turbo failure issues on diesels are reducing as the products mature so this is more of an issue on second hand buys. petrols engines are also starting to get the same technology so there may a similar effect with DI petrols.

ultimately i dont think it is clear cut there are some situations where one makes more sense than the other, eg i wouldnt recommended a diesel city car if it is euro 5, but for many people the numbers are about the same so it comes down to personal choice.

there are people who prefer driving a diesel just as there are people who prefer petrol.

(says the development engineer for diesel fuel systems who drives a turbo petrol;))
 
[TW]Fox;13398355 said:
Can we ban the term 'ingear acceleration' given it has no merit at all other than making diesels seem amazing.
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NO if look at how many people drive then in gear acceleration is very relevant. for manual cars most people arent in the optimum gear for acceleration. the manufacturers have huge amounts of data showing that low down torque is prefferred, ideally this would be a wide and flat torque band as seen on many of the modern turbo petrols but when comapring the most popular engines namely na petrols and turbo diesels then most drivers use the diesel more effectively than a petrol.
 
[TW]Fox;13366668 said:
It's based on a press release issued by Parkers who appear to exist purely to comment on used car prices so I guess its up to you who you feel is more credible.

But, lets assume for one minute its true - diesels are worth more at resale. This will be because of higher demand for diesel cars, and this is because the public is uneducated. They assume diesel is cheaper and buy it regardless without doing any of the maths. This increases demand for diesel cars, which compounds the problem. I've done it - my first car was a diesel because hey, its diesel, it will be cheaper obviously?! Like I can afford to run a petrol car, so I bought a diesel without even looking at the petrol cars. Great. Saved me nothing at all.

If I decide to get an LCI 530i M Sport next I am going to have a proper mission to actually find one because people just dont buy them, even though they are faster the 530d, cleaner than the 530d, smoother than the 530d, more reliable than the 530d, cheaper on company car tax than a 530d and are only 6mpg less efficient on the combined cycle than a 530d.

I wonder how many 530d drivers even know the 530i is still available, let alone actually looked at it?

It just seems that in this country you have to have a diesel, cos, its like, cheaper. Even though its not..

Buying a diesel to save money has become a bit like buying a Prius to save the environment. And, like the Prius owners tell people they did it to save the world, people driving diesel Astras genuinelly try and convince themselves it wasn't a compromise and that their noisy, clattery hire cars really are awesome :/
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That's all well and good,
but the company doesn't pay company car tax, the employees do.

The company will generally pay fuel bills, if a car does more MPG, then they will go for that one without thinking about anything else.
 
Shimmyhill said:
I'm sure someone has pointed this out but that is wrong, once you break even you will save money every mile on the diesel. And as you said the residual value will be more on the diesel and potentially less tax etc.

FWIW my last company car (diesel) broke even in the 16th month and saved money all the way to the 3rd year (lease for 3rd year) It was worked out properly with residuals and buy back and not by an idiot from the nazi paper :rolleyes:
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clv101 said:
This is pretty simple really isn't it - look at how much a car costs, look at how many miles it covers in its life, work out the cost of fuelling it with petrol or diesel, compare that with the cost difference. The diesel car uses less fuel over its life.

You need to look at total cost of ownership, cradle to grave. Multiply up by 30 million cars in the country or whatever it is and work out how much the UK would spend on a petrol fleet compared with a diesel fleet. Diesel comes out cheaper.
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I think these two posts pretty much cover it.
 
[TW]Fox;13398355 said:
Can we ban the term 'ingear acceleration' given it has no merit at all other than making diesels seem amazing.
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It carries plenty of merit as it gives a very real indication of performance.
It has FAR more meaning that the 0-60 times that so many in here seem to put a great deal of weight in, yet 0-60 is constantly held up to be the be all and end all by some.
 
The_Dark_Side said:
It carries plenty of merit as it gives a very real indication of performance.
It has FAR more meaning that the 0-60 times that so many in here seem to put a great deal of weight in, yet 0-60 is constantly held up to be the be all and end all by some.
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Not with a Q7, which are nearly all sold as autos.... ;) :D
 
Overlag said:
maybe if you cruise around in 2nd or 3rd gear it is.
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Never pulled out to perform a leisurely overtake when you thought you had plenty of time, only for something to happen requiring you to need a lot of extra "go" instantly?

Quick in gear times are extremely relevant in situations like this. Try doing the above in a VTEC when you're somewhere around 1000/1500 RPM away from the power cam and you'll see what I mean.
 
The_Dark_Side said:
Just because the 'box is changing the gears for you doesn't change the fact that one engine will go through them faster than another though ;)
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No, but it tends to negate the 'diesel advantage' of lazy drivers not changing the gear to the best one for acceleration at a given time.

When comparing through gear acceleration times, diesels tend not to win, it's only when you're comparing low rev acceleration that diesel wins.
 
Dolph said:
When comparing through gear acceleration times, diesels tend not to win, it's only when you're comparing low rev acceleration that diesel wins.
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Quite, and it still doesn't prove anything as most smaller capacity diesels (4 cylinder ones, basically) have a very narrow powerband so you might get half way through that frenzied overtake and need to change gear anyway ;)
 
The_Dark_Side said:
Never pulled out to perform a leisurely overtake when you thought you had plenty of time, only for something to happen requiring you to need a lot of extra "go" instantly?

Quick in gear times are extremely relevant in situations like this. Try doing the above in a VTEC when you're somewhere around 1000/1500 RPM away from the power cam and you'll see what I mean.
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just change down 2 gears and go whats the problem?

oh and why would you be driving a petrol at 1000rpm?
 
I thought that might be the case.

If you must know, I've been driving since october 2004, and I know what the term means, I just think terms such as 'mid-range grunt/acceleration' make more sense :p

It was a semi-throwaway comment, not really designed to start a huge debate :)
 
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