And I've never known a demo to be defended as much as this. The demo was good, but it is not without its flaws.
Killzone 2 Demo - First impressions
- Thread starter Robert1986
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And I've never known a demo to be defended as much as this. The demo was good, but it is not without its flaws.
Soldato
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lol, Let's just say discussed and that covers defend and analyze at the same time without making anyone out to be overly doing something
Still dont get what these videos are trying to prove? By flicking your analog stick in a direction the game does not respond, guess i must be playing the game wrong by actually trying to move the stick in a direction until it gets where i want it to beWonder how well you could steer a car in GT5/ forza just by flicking the stick, its an analogue input of course its not going to work properly. Anyway i dont think ive ever known a demo to be over analised as this has been people doing frame by frame steps to find there is a 4 frame or 0.16 seconds delay between you hitting a button and the gun firing, isnt there a delay in real life for a trigger?
I used to go clay pigeon shooting with my uncle when I was 13 and I aim and shoot faster than Sev, an apparently trained soldier in the ISA. I think the rabid justifying for this design decision that many seem to disapprove of is a bit bewildering to be honest.
When you have a hundred-page plus thread on the official forum, and a clear 50/50 split down the middle of the KZ2 fanbase concering the user input - there's a problem. It may not affect me or anyone else who is fine with it, but there is a problem.
A Demo from an old build of an uncomplete game with Flaws? Well i never
Think its best to judge on the finished game as most demoes, i can remember Uncharted demo not being very well recieved down to gun play issues that was fixed on retail.
A 9 page thread on a 9 minute long demo, what were you expecting? People all agreeing with each other and patting themselves on the back?
The amount of hype and bumming this game has received, you have to expect some people would not like it or notice "flaws" in the demo.
rp2000
Nah course not that would be no fun at all lol, maybe if i could detect a 160 ms delay in me pressing the trigger and the gun firing while im busy looking at the screen I'd moan too.
ROFL I had 'Full HDMI' turned on and I had no idea until earlier that this was making things way too dark.
Turned it off and Killzone 2 in particular looks so much better, I forgot to do the black squares test with this set so just assumed it would work fine like my last TV.
Turned it off and Killzone 2 in particular looks so much better, I forgot to do the black squares test with this set so just assumed it would work fine like my last TV.
Soldato
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Right, regarding the lag, well there is some, about 130ms of it, this chap here has pretty much proven it in this very good video, this is the best demonstration of the input lag I've seen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yFa_EZORYo
Now before I go on I'd like to say that this, now there are two different types of complaints in regards to the way the game feels, I think we need to separate these two issues now becuase people are going to get confused.
1 : There are people are are just not happy with the weight of the controls that GG intended for you to feel by creating a longer acceleration period/arc.
2 : There are people that are fine with the weighted controls but have an issue with how long it takes for the game to respond to your button presses and or actions (known as input lag), so in essence some people are saying that it's the delay before the game even starts to move at the point of the acceleration period/arc that is the problem, not the slower acceleration period/arc itself.
Now I'd also like to say that I am used to the controls now, and I've grown to like the weighted feeling that GG obviously wanted the player to feel. But at the same time I do feel that people in the number two category above to have a right to complain as I know some people are very sensitive to input lag, myself included but I've chosen to tolerate it.
Now 4-5 frames would probably equate to about 130-160ms lag which to be far is quite high, it's one of those things that is very noticeable for a minority, some people are quite sensitive to input lag, I've came across this topic in regards to TFT monitors before, all you have to do is type 'monitor input lag' into google and you'll see it's a big issue for many PC gamers, the reason why it isn't such a big issues for console users is that it's usually harder to detect input lag using a game pad as they are not as responsive as mice, but as this game seems to have about double the input lag than most games it is being picked up by some people which is understandable.
It's just one of those things, I know with a mouse my input lag threshold is around 45ms, more than that and I can't play the game, which is one of the reasons I sold my last panel, it had an average input lag of 60-70ms, which was intolerable, but using a control pad for games on that panel it was very hard to notice, now at 130ms, even with a control pad I can detect the input lag in KZ2, now I don't think it's game breaking, but it is there, and I can see that for some it would be quite annoying.
It's just one of those things where some people are extremely sensitive to it, and others are not, my second system's (PC) TFT monitor has about 65ms lag on it and I have people use that system to play games via lan all the time, no one finds the lag an issue, I however can't play games on that system becuase of it.
These things effect us all differently.
No one should be ridiculed for being particularly sensitive to input lag, it's not their fault, moaning about the weight in the game ok, that's silly, the weight is intended, but like I said before, the input lag is not.
I'm not trying to stir the pot but rather try to let people gain a better understanding as to why some people would have an issue with the controls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yFa_EZORYo
Now before I go on I'd like to say that this, now there are two different types of complaints in regards to the way the game feels, I think we need to separate these two issues now becuase people are going to get confused.
1 : There are people are are just not happy with the weight of the controls that GG intended for you to feel by creating a longer acceleration period/arc.
2 : There are people that are fine with the weighted controls but have an issue with how long it takes for the game to respond to your button presses and or actions (known as input lag), so in essence some people are saying that it's the delay before the game even starts to move at the point of the acceleration period/arc that is the problem, not the slower acceleration period/arc itself.
Now I'd also like to say that I am used to the controls now, and I've grown to like the weighted feeling that GG obviously wanted the player to feel. But at the same time I do feel that people in the number two category above to have a right to complain as I know some people are very sensitive to input lag, myself included but I've chosen to tolerate it.
Now 4-5 frames would probably equate to about 130-160ms lag which to be far is quite high, it's one of those things that is very noticeable for a minority, some people are quite sensitive to input lag, I've came across this topic in regards to TFT monitors before, all you have to do is type 'monitor input lag' into google and you'll see it's a big issue for many PC gamers, the reason why it isn't such a big issues for console users is that it's usually harder to detect input lag using a game pad as they are not as responsive as mice, but as this game seems to have about double the input lag than most games it is being picked up by some people which is understandable.
It's just one of those things, I know with a mouse my input lag threshold is around 45ms, more than that and I can't play the game, which is one of the reasons I sold my last panel, it had an average input lag of 60-70ms, which was intolerable, but using a control pad for games on that panel it was very hard to notice, now at 130ms, even with a control pad I can detect the input lag in KZ2, now I don't think it's game breaking, but it is there, and I can see that for some it would be quite annoying.
It's just one of those things where some people are extremely sensitive to it, and others are not, my second system's (PC) TFT monitor has about 65ms lag on it and I have people use that system to play games via lan all the time, no one finds the lag an issue, I however can't play games on that system becuase of it.
These things effect us all differently.
No one should be ridiculed for being particularly sensitive to input lag, it's not their fault, moaning about the weight in the game ok, that's silly, the weight is intended, but like I said before, the input lag is not.
I'm not trying to stir the pot but rather try to let people gain a better understanding as to why some people would have an issue with the controls.
I know it's not a huge deal, but those video's do show that the lag is quite significant, and if you are sensitive to it, it's gonna be a real pain.
I personally didn't find it bad at all, sure it feels 'slow' and whatnot, but in isolation, I'm happy to just get used to it.. but if I had to flit between FPS games as we often do when playing on-line, this is going to make the issue all the more noticeable..
Those videos seem valid to me, you don't need to necessarily compare to Resistance 2 to know that 150ms of lag is bad.. and showing the XMB just takes the TV out of the equation, which is the first problem area most people would look at if they experience lag in any game.
I personally didn't find it bad at all, sure it feels 'slow' and whatnot, but in isolation, I'm happy to just get used to it.. but if I had to flit between FPS games as we often do when playing on-line, this is going to make the issue all the more noticeable..
Those videos seem valid to me, you don't need to necessarily compare to Resistance 2 to know that 150ms of lag is bad.. and showing the XMB just takes the TV out of the equation, which is the first problem area most people would look at if they experience lag in any game.
Read my earlier comments lowrider - unless theres an effective norm to compare against his findings are inconclusive at best - I agree 150ms of lag is terrible (kind of lag youd expect playing on dialup years ago) in general, but I just cant believe and back up those conclusions on something so poorly devised.
I personally wouldnt be surprised if such a magnitude of lag existed in many console FPSs but because of the control system its been relatively overlooked or considered minor in the face of such a relatively awkward native control system
ps3ud0
I personally wouldnt be surprised if such a magnitude of lag existed in many console FPSs but because of the control system its been relatively overlooked or considered minor in the face of such a relatively awkward native control system
ps3ud0
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Read my earlier comments lowrider - unless theres an effective norm to compare against his findings are inconclusive at best...
ps3ud0
You're adopting a 'put head in sand' measure here, and it's really ****ing annoying. Are all these people just making this up in their heads? We don't need anything to compare it against, people feel it's unresponsive for them, it needs jacking up, end of story.
No Im not - Im just not stupid enough to consider such a poorly thought out experiment is empirical proof of an issue. I defer that there maybe an issue but not niave enough to present such findings to be conclusive and indicative that the issue exists. to the extent its a major deteriment to the game
As I said a comparison to another console FPS would at least give us a means to understand the issue...
From the developers point of view I very much doubt they will jack it up because some people find it unresponsive - proper investigation needs to happen and the youtube vides presented so far really are laughable if you consider them conclusive evidence...
ps3ud0
As I said a comparison to another console FPS would at least give us a means to understand the issue...
From the developers point of view I very much doubt they will jack it up because some people find it unresponsive - proper investigation needs to happen and the youtube vides presented so far really are laughable if you consider them conclusive evidence...
ps3ud0
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Soldato
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Read my earlier comments lowrider - unless theres an effective norm to compare against his findings are inconclusive at best...
ps3ud0
The beginnings of an effective norm is HERE, a test done by the same chap for Resistance 2 shows that the input lag is half that of KZ2, I've spoken to the chap before, I'm going to ask him if he can do the same test for a few more games so we can get a mean average.
No Im not - Im just not stupid enough to consider such a poorly thought out experiment is empirical proof of an issue. I defer that there maybe an issue but not niave enough to present such findings to be conclusive and indicative that the issue exists. to the extent its a major deteriment to the game
As I said a comparison to another console FPS would at least give us a means to understand the issue...
From the developers point of view I very much doubt they will jack it up because some people find it unresponsive - proper investigation needs to happen and the youtube vides presented so far really are laughable if you consider them conclusive evidence...
ps3ud0
I'll agree with the 'burying head in sand' comments...
To really think the videos show 'nothing' and are 'laughable' really shows your amazing fundamental lack of common sense.
It's is however interesting to see how brainwashed you can be with the PS3 to somehow try and spin this is a really great thing, and GG are pushing barriers with it or something!..
LOL
Soldato
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Thanks lowrider, at least there are some people on here that dont assume if you dont believe in their argument or require further details that you are there to ridicule them
ps3ud0
np,
I'd also like to point out that I too believe a lot of the videos on youtube are a bit silly and do a poor job at trying to demonstrate the input lag, but this one in particular is very good as you can actually count frame by frame how long it takes for the game to respond, now each frame is equivalent to 33ms, so you can easily work out the input lag of the game and compare it to others games.
LOL try and have a look for my posts regards how much I think of consoles and FPSes on them and then call me brainwashed...I'll agree with the 'burying head in sand' comments...
To really think the videos show 'nothing' and are 'laughable' really shows your amazing fundamental lack of common sense.
It's is however interesting to see how brainwashed you can be with the PS3 to somehow try and spin this is a really great thing, and GG are pushing barriers with it or something!..
LOL
Jesus - its amazing how obtuse people can be
- please re-read my posts in future and realise I actually havent said it shows 'nothing'...ps3ud0
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I'll agree with the 'burying head in sand' comments...
To really think the videos show 'nothing' and are 'laughable' really shows your amazing fundamental lack of common sense.
It's is however interesting to see how brainwashed you can be with the PS3 to somehow try and spin this is a really great thing, and GG are pushing barriers with it or something!..
LOL
Dont think people are burying head in sand if you dont have a problem then its hard to see the problem, like i said i cant detect the problem, doesnt mean there isnt one for others. If its as game stopping horribly bad as ive been told by those who have a problem then its not to late for GG to patch it. As lowrider said this lag problem is a totally different issue to the "weighty" controls which can be adjusted to and GG are unlikely to do anything about as they are as intended.
Has anyone considered that this is deliberate, but not to add the aforementioned weight? By this i mean, how do we know the delay in aiming isn't due to GG wanting excellent animations, when a player turns for it to look realistic the model would need to 'animate' its way into a turning movement. Same with firing the gun, what if they've stuck in a quick 'bracing' animation and trigger movement?
Complete speculation but yeah.
Complete speculation but yeah.