It's all BALLS, BALLS, BALLS, BALLS really
- Thread starter laissez-faire
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I am watching World at War up to episode 3 and the main cause of WW2 was the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles, A lot of countries had mass unemployment right before the start of the war, you could say we are heading for another war is unemployment becomes massive but it will be a short war and benefit nobody.
Soldato
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Yeah, it might have been that series that I was watching actually. I think it was being shown on that channel.
Well the averageness of seeing such a thing on a weekend TV re-run of a program kind of shows that its not top secret information or something. The type of thing that cheets64 is talking about is well documented fact and taught in schools, etc.
And yes, sharks are cool.
And yes, sharks are cool.
Some off topic trivia for those who might not be in the know:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampullae_of_Lorenzini
I've often wondered what the human race would have turned out like, if we had never invented currency. I've always thought that money has actually stifled our progression as a human race.
I imagined the world without money to have the common goal to progress the human race out of compassion for our fellow people, and not to "get rich quick" motive we see from companies now. Instead of going to work to earn money, you go to work, knowing your helping the cogs of the world/human kind to turn. Everyone would have the best of everything, there wouldn't be "upper/middle/lower" classes, we'd all be equal. We'd be doing our job without the worry of finances, but knowing we are helping out the world in some way or another.
For instance, take health care for example. In the UK we limit treatment for horrible diseases such as cancer, on grounds of the "cost/benefits" principle, i.e. "oh this drug only extends a patients life by a few months, but costs £30,000 per treatment, we cant have that on the NHS" If currency never existed, and these drug companies, instead of their goal being to make a profit, it was to actually find a drug to cure/prolong life that everyone could have if they needed, we would be closer to finding a cure etc.
Instead of the driving force being money/profit, self greed. It would be compassion and empathy for the progression of ALL mankind.
Oh well i can but dream! It would be nice if we as a race were all like that, but i feel we're too far gone in our ways now
I imagined the world without money to have the common goal to progress the human race out of compassion for our fellow people, and not to "get rich quick" motive we see from companies now. Instead of going to work to earn money, you go to work, knowing your helping the cogs of the world/human kind to turn. Everyone would have the best of everything, there wouldn't be "upper/middle/lower" classes, we'd all be equal. We'd be doing our job without the worry of finances, but knowing we are helping out the world in some way or another.
For instance, take health care for example. In the UK we limit treatment for horrible diseases such as cancer, on grounds of the "cost/benefits" principle, i.e. "oh this drug only extends a patients life by a few months, but costs £30,000 per treatment, we cant have that on the NHS" If currency never existed, and these drug companies, instead of their goal being to make a profit, it was to actually find a drug to cure/prolong life that everyone could have if they needed, we would be closer to finding a cure etc.
Instead of the driving force being money/profit, self greed. It would be compassion and empathy for the progression of ALL mankind.
Oh well i can but dream! It would be nice if we as a race were all like that, but i feel we're too far gone in our ways now
Aye yes it must be all rubbish because its on tv
It was filmed and edited with the people that had lived and breathed WW2
Soldato
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Yeah, the shark's extra sense. The Lateral line is considered a sense aswell by the looks of it, so seven senses in total.
I once disected a big stingray once to look at both systems - very interesting!Yeah, the shark's extra sense. The Lateral line is considered a sense aswell by the looks of it, so seven senses in total.
Also highly facinating is the use of the compound TMAO in a sharks blood, which I suggest you look into if you want some cool science
Here is an easy reading link:
http://www.elasmo-research.org/education/white_shark/tmao.htm
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Soldato
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I once disected a big stingray once to look at both systems - very interesting!
Also highly facinating is the use of the compound TMAO in a sharks blood, which I suggest you look into if you want some cool science
Where did you do that? What's your area of study/career in if you don't mind me asking?
I'm guessing something in Science. You seem to know a lot about sharks (stingrays being of the same species aswell I think).
I have a degree in biology from the University of Bristol, so I do happen to know the odd bit and bob about most animals. It's nice to have a degree that so many people are interested in and that people can relate to! Now I am studying law... a career as a scientist isn't exactly... wise.
Sharks and rays are not part of the same 'species' but are members of the elasmobranchs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasmobranchii
More trivia: although sharks and rays certainly detect prey through their electroreception (this is how they find the sneaky clams etc in the sand hidden away - their detect the electricity from them), it is hypothesised sharks can actually detect the magnetism from the north and south poles through the same mechnanism. This means they potentially can use this extra sense as a compass, explaining why some sharks are so good at navigating.
Alas, I miss my biology.
Yup
I'll deal with these two together.
The main natural resource that is finite is oil. Many other resources will last for 1000 years at the very least, and by then will probably be replaced by some new technological advance.
There is no need to rely on oil though. Now, the only "use" of oil is for heavy diesel for ships, jet fuel and chemical production. There is no need for us to use oil for fuel any longer, we have the alternatives that is not based on a finite resource.
If oil is only used for the above needs, it will probably last 200 years, by which time I think we will be able to replace its requirement in the above.
Now to deal with the issue of what energy sources do we use.
Well, namely, nuclear. Estimates have put it that there is enough nuclear material for fission to last us at least 1000 years. HOWEVER, we are at most 100 years away from nuclear fusion. This means that the nuclear energy is close to infinite.
This means that the issue of energy is solved.
So what other resources are finite? Well, some will argue that metals and so on are finite. Perhaps, but there are a hell of a lot of them around still. Metals can also be recycled. BUT more importantly, we are moving into using composites instead of metals, thus once again moving towards something that is almost infinite.
So tell me now, why can we not have a society that is not based on money / finite resources now? Sure it will take a few changes but overall it is possible.
Which is exactly why I pulled the Star Trek idea and posted here. That is more or less a description of how the Federation in an IMAGINARY book/tv show/film works.
I see no reason why it cannot potentially work on the whole once we move away form using finite resources.
The problem is that while for most of us moving away from money will not result in a huge loss, and at times will be a gain, for the "rich and powerful" it will be a huge loss. Right now they have power due to their wealth, they are able to lead a lifestyle and do as they please because of their wealth. Take that away, and they will not be happy. Which is a reason why the above "utopia" idea will never happen, the powerful minority will resist it.
But we have only created those type of people ourselves. The concept of currency is ingrained into our culture. If currency had never come to be, then we wouldnt have people obsessed with personal greed, or very few, as they would never know about money if it had never of been invented.
Man of Honour
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Do they use money on Star Trek or not?
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Sometimes I think the main pleasure that Star Trek affords is the game of explaining the horrendous logical problems that crop up so often.
Many people have observed an inconsistency in the attitude of Star Trek characters towards money. In episodes of both the original and the more recent series, the characters often describe the Federation as if it were a perfect socialist (or at any rate, post-capitalist) society, where there is no money and nobody wants for material things. In the movie Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, Captain Kirk says that they don't use money in the future. In the movie Star Trek: First Contact, Captain Picard says that in the future no one is motivated by the desire for material wealth. And so on.
But at other times, capitalism seems alive and well in the Star Trek universe. There are money-grubbing space traders like Harry Mudd. The Enterprise crewmembers sometimes spend "credits". The inhabitants of Deep Space Nine gamble in a casino, winning and losing bars of precious latinum. So what gives?
In this case I think there is a logical explanation for the apparent inconsistency. Perhaps the Federation proper is a perfect socialist (or at least post-capitalist) society, where there is no money. But aliens outside the Federation, and quasi-outlaws like Harry Mudd, continue to operate in a capitalist manner. Starfleet personnel, out on the fringes of the Federation, are understandably in a gray area. It may be useful for them to accumulate "credits" and "bars of latinum" to trade with people who care for such things, even if money wouldn't be of any use back home on Earth.
I think this fix works pretty well because (arguably) almost all we see of the Federation are the crews of starships and starbases and scientific outposts on the wild frontier. We see little or nothing of ordinary people living their lives in the heavily-populated core worlds of the Federation. Kirk and Picard may be thinking primarily of these people when bragging about how their society has evolved beyond the need for money.
- - - -
Sometimes I think the main pleasure that Star Trek affords is the game of explaining the horrendous logical problems that crop up so often.
Many people have observed an inconsistency in the attitude of Star Trek characters towards money. In episodes of both the original and the more recent series, the characters often describe the Federation as if it were a perfect socialist (or at any rate, post-capitalist) society, where there is no money and nobody wants for material things. In the movie Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, Captain Kirk says that they don't use money in the future. In the movie Star Trek: First Contact, Captain Picard says that in the future no one is motivated by the desire for material wealth. And so on.
But at other times, capitalism seems alive and well in the Star Trek universe. There are money-grubbing space traders like Harry Mudd. The Enterprise crewmembers sometimes spend "credits". The inhabitants of Deep Space Nine gamble in a casino, winning and losing bars of precious latinum. So what gives?
In this case I think there is a logical explanation for the apparent inconsistency. Perhaps the Federation proper is a perfect socialist (or at least post-capitalist) society, where there is no money. But aliens outside the Federation, and quasi-outlaws like Harry Mudd, continue to operate in a capitalist manner. Starfleet personnel, out on the fringes of the Federation, are understandably in a gray area. It may be useful for them to accumulate "credits" and "bars of latinum" to trade with people who care for such things, even if money wouldn't be of any use back home on Earth.
I think this fix works pretty well because (arguably) almost all we see of the Federation are the crews of starships and starbases and scientific outposts on the wild frontier. We see little or nothing of ordinary people living their lives in the heavily-populated core worlds of the Federation. Kirk and Picard may be thinking primarily of these people when bragging about how their society has evolved beyond the need for money.
People have tried communism - it doesn't work. It's in our nature to want to be better than others, and be rewarded for it. People want different things out of life, so treating/rewarding everyone the same is stupidity.
Incentivising people breeds innovation which ultimately leads to the development of the quality of our lives (that could be how we communciate to finding a cure for a disease). The real issue is how you incentivise - you could as you say use the development as the race as an angle but on the whole, humans don't care about the survival of the species, they care about the survival of themselves. This is the reason we want to be better than the next guy and be rewarded for it.
Whilst your thhoughts would all be very good in theory, it absolutely could never work.
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I agree communism didnt work, but that was an ideal brought in after we'd had "money" or currency already ingrained into our culture. What I was trying to imagine, is if currency had never ever been invented, that the human race would not know of it etc.
I'm not trying to treat everybody the same, obviously people like different things, we'd all be driving cars we want, running on a renewable or infinite energy source etc, access to the best healthcare, in return the people would be doing their bit towards progressing or helping human kind. Its a hard concept to grasp, as we've been brought up on the idea of making money, and using it as means to be "one better" than the next person.
it probably wouldnt now, as we are all used to how things are now, that i agree with.
I was just imagining it if we'd had never known the concept of money that was all.
Man of Honour
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You just had to remind him didn't you? I bet you secretly love that Moses99 starts his posts with "Hi there".
As for the Venus Project, there's really not that much to be said, a few half-truths packaged up as something new and groundbreaking which doesn't really achieve much.