Lad breaks into a house and is killed...

semi-pro waster said:
But without the death penalty do you already abide by the law? If you do then you're a very poor example to use to say that the death penalty works.
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Yes, i do when i know it will effect myself or others around me (because i did learn values as a child), however i would say i don't when i know there is no one getting hurt, say for example speeding on the motorway (as a small example). If i knew i would get the death penalty for getting caught for that, things would change instantly. Why can't that apply to someone who didn't learn values (they will always value their life), but for obviously more serious crimes.
 
I'm not particularly surprised that this has turned into a pro/anti death penalty debate thread.

However, I AM suprised that it has become so because the anti death penalty brigade started the argument.

Are you all so deluded that you don't believe it's acceptable that a thug and burglar was killed in the act? He chose that life, and he stepped outside of socially acceptable boundaries. He died for it - end of.

That has absolutely nothing to do with his legal "consent" and rights. That's one scumbag waste of existence dead - and I'm happy for that.

NO burglar "consents" to any kind of harm when they invade your home. They consent to nothing but stealing your possessions. Does that mean they should be lawfully protected against any and all harm? Does it ****.

One life, in my opinon, is not worth more than the next. This specific case led to quite an argument between me and the Mrs. the other night when I said I would have been delighted to watch that little piece of **** cry for his mother while he bled to death. I would have loved nothing more than to laugh and jeer at him as he wheezed and gasped for life. To act as the conscience he obviously never had in those final moments.

This case is ground-breaking. It is the culmination of years of the decent worker being abused by underclass chav scum with absolutely no decent assistance from the authorities. The "murderer" here is being hailed as a hero by the local community, and that is absolutely no surprise for me.

For the last 2 and a half years, we have been subjected to broken windows, repeated harrassment, vandalism and abuse - constantly on edge even inside our home by little scumbags like this. The reason? NONE. None whatsoever -- we're decent folk who work all day, come home and relax. We keep our heads down and get on with our lives. Easy targets.

These little scrotes either aren't in any kind of education anymore, or play truant -- we never so much as SEE their parents despite the fact almost every one of them lives within a stone's throw of our house. One week ago, we came home to find them crawling all over our garden, having broken into an old car we have at the side of the house - windscreen wiper snapped off, petrol siphoned out.

Police were called, had a look, and as we're going inside I hear a noise -- look out and within a stone's throw one of them is leaning out a window screaming abuse at me -- spitting and hollering like some kind of animal. Looking at that, I've vowed "enough is enough". No more.

I will be buying an axe next week. Should any more trouble arise from them, I now know where at least three of them live. I'll be visiting their homes in the night. Doors will be kicked in, and their parents will suffer. Only the teenagers will be hurt if they intervene.

There's only so much the average, decent person can take. I've written to my MP, I've been on the verge of suicide (see the previous depression threads for the full story), and I've been driven back into alcoholism by the actions of these scumbag "gangstas". Nobody deserves to live like this, and I will celebrate the death of each and every one of these "disaffected youths" as long as I live.
 
Pestilence said:
There's only so much the average, decent person can take. I've written to my MP, I've been on the verge of suicide (see the previous depression threads for the full story), and I've been driven back into alcoholism by the actions of these scumbag "gangstas". Nobody deserves to live like this, and I will celebrate the death of each and every one of these "disaffected youths" as long as I live.
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You know, we're not stupid. I am completely aware of the effects that young people can have on person's life such as yourself.

But, although its understandable that you see things in that way, you have a totally black and white perspective on things and unfortunately aren't seeing the bigger picture probably because you don't have time to and it isn't important to you.

However, if "dissaffected youths" are to be dealt with, it has to be achieved by solving the social problems behind it and that takes years to do. Individuals buying axes might make them feel safe but it does nothing to cure the problem on a wider scale. Neither does the inevitable mentions of the death penalty and stricter sentencing.

You've clearly turned your views into an "us or them" mentality, seeing "them" as the enemy. However I do not for one second presume to claim that I know what you are going through. I am simply making assumptions.
 
Chimerical said:
However, if "dissaffected youths" are to be dealt with, it has to be achieved by solving the social problems behind it
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What, you mean like fashioning some sort of time-machine and going back to May 1997 to liquidate the entire New-Labour party?

Let's not forget, it's their loony policies that bred this feral generation. Corporal punishment in schools for instance, even the hardest bullying **** in my year at school had respect for the teachers. He was a right ****, yet when he left school he didn't decide to go around robbing houses and hanging out on street corners drinking white cider and knifing people. Yeah, OK I know it's generic stereotype of "youth culture" but you get the idea.
 
Chimerical said:
You know, we're not stupid. I am completely aware of the effects that young people can have on person's life such as yourself.

But, although its understandable that you see things in that way, you have a totally black and white perspective on things and unfortunately aren't seeing the bigger picture probably because you don't have time to and it isn't important to you.

However, if "dissaffected youths" are to be dealt with, it has to be achieved by solving the social problems behind it and that takes years to do. Individuals buying axes might make them feel safe but it does nothing to cure the problem on a wider scale. Neither does the inevitable mentions of the death penalty and stricter sentencing.

You've clearly turned your views into an "us or them" mentality, seeing "them" as the enemy. However I do not for one second presume to claim that I know what you are going through. I am simply making assumptions.
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I don't intend to be in any way insulting or confrontational, but I find your naivety astounding.

I do indeed have an "us and them" mentality -- however that is not of my own doing. THEY have made an enemy of ME. We've been nothing but nice, humorous and accomodating to the local rag-tags, yet they continue with their actions. They're completely unreasonable -- they see anyone who doesn't present themselves as a threat as a target.

You admit to never having to experience this kind of life, yet you still make judgements and assumptions as though they're social fact. The underlying issues of broken families, idiotic peers and negative cultural influences is simply overwhelming. There has to be a point where the slate has to wiped clean and everything started again. With how far we've gone, I'm not sure any Government can correct it while keeping the favour of the people as a whole.

I also didn't say that I would be buying an axe to make me feel safe. I currently have swords and assorted tools in the home for that. Those aren't strong enough, however, for invading the homes and lives of others as mine have been.

I'm fully aware that going house by house in an evening with an offensive weapon will ultimately land me in jail. However, should it come to that I will leave multiple mutilated bodies in my wake and do away with myself while incarcirated. In my present situation I see little worth in existence anyway, and if I can improve my neighbourhood, however slightly, by removing some scumbag families, that's enough for me.
 
Azagoth said:
What, you mean like fashioning some sort of time-machine and going back to May 1997 to liquidate the entire New-Labour party?

Let's not forget, it's their loony policies that bred this feral generation. Corporal punishment in schools for instance, even the hardest bullying **** in my year at school had respect for the teachers. He was a right ****, yet when he left school he didn't decide to go around robbing houses and hanging out on street corners drinking white cider and knifing people. Yeah, OK I know it's generic stereotype of "youth culture" but you get the idea.
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That is also a very good point. My wife is a teacher in a very crappy city school, and the plain erosion of authority led by this government is extremely prevalent there. Teachers, including her, are assaulted on a regular basis -- not to mention the decent pupils -- and absolutely nothing is done about it. Discipline simply does not exist.

For example, a few weeks ago she had to ring a parent about their child being late for school. The parent explained, to paraphrase, "Of couse he was late...our car wouldn't start so he had to down the round and break into another car to get us in there. Took about an hour or so."

She had no power but to say "Oh.....ok." and hang up.

A gang of them were caught on the school CCTV beating and stamping on another pupil's head simply because he was smart, and absolutely nothing was done. This is Britain.
 
ChroniC said:
Yes, i do when i know it will effect myself or others around me (because i did learn values as a child), however i would say i don't when i know there is no one getting hurt, say for example speeding on the motorway (as a small example). If i knew i would get the death penalty for getting caught for that, things would change instantly. Why can't that apply to someone who didn't learn values (they will always value their life), but for obviously more serious crimes.
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You're making a pretty big assumption there that people will actually value their life and secondly that they have the foresight to consider their actions have consequences. It might work for some people but will almost certainly not work for others, what we might loosely group under the term of psychologically unstable - is it fair to punish people for doing something when they have no understanding of what is considered wrong? You have to consider proportionality in the argument (or actually you, specifically, don't but a legislature does) and death for stealing simply is not proportionate in any regard.
 
Slightly related to this topic... a friend of mine (big 18st brick outhouse dude that makes me look like a stick insect) woke up in the middle of the night and decided to go down to the kitchen for a drink, and on his way down he has a bit of a "dog leg" landing, i.e. he comes down the stairs, ther's a 1.5x1.5m landing and then he turns left to go down to the ground floor as he just go to the landing he saw someone on the stairs that bolted up towards him. They had a scuffle (though it was an unfair contest) and the kid fell down the stairs and broke his back. My friend called the ambulance and provided first aid and looked after the kid (I think he was 19).

The police came took statements and so on. The kid's back was broken and he was in traction for 6 months or so. Anyway he sued my friend - and it went all the way. It put strain on my friend's then girlfriend (they're now married), his job was hanging in the balance (he couldn't sleep, was stressed, and had to dedicate a lot of time to the trial), he fell out with a lot of "friends" and was being constantly hounded by these youths. :(

My friend popped to see him in hospital and sat with him speakign to him (I think this is why the court case had troubles because the kid must have said he had threatened him) telling him he was sorry he was injured but you broke into MY house and you went for me etc...

Anyway, to cut a long story short, it all came out in the wash, the charges were unsubstantiated, my friend ended up getting compensation, a promotion at work in Oz, and they've now moved to Oz and are enjoying a wonderful life. The reason he went through all this was because of his size and it was deemed he had used inapprorpirate force?! It's madness.

What gets me is the attitude of these kids/people that break into people's homes and expect little to no consequences.

We all get caught up in the moment - some people would lock themselves in the bathroom and ring the police, other people would attack, some would tell them to get out and others who knows... Personally I'd try to coherce the guy in leaving, but only strike if I were attacked, and although I wouldn't want to harm the person too much I know that I would give little regard for his health in the heat of the moment. I would probably regret it later though.

If you do the crime be ready for the consequences.
 
semi-pro waster said:
You're making a pretty big assumption there that people will actually value their life and secondly that they have the foresight to consider their actions have consequences. It might work for some people but will almost certainly not work for others, what we might loosely group under the term of psychologically unstable - is it fair to punish people for doing something when they have no understanding of what is considered wrong? You have to consider proportionality in the argument (or actually you, specifically, don't but a legislature does) and death for stealing simply is not proportionate in any regard.
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Id have to say your making a large assumption that theives are are psychological unstable. I would make the generalisation that most theft is premeditated. I also think that most psychologically unwell people still unless full blown mentalist know right from wrong, any other case i would deem mentally retarded, (of course im not saying people do not get trial).
The whole reason it would stop people is the fact its not proportional, people rob because they don't fear the consequences, in so much as if the sentence for robbery was 2 days community service, a lot more people would be robbing, and visa versa in my opinion.
 
Surely, there is a bigger problem here:-
The fact that, although there had been a spate of burglaries in the area, it appears that liitle had been done about them. IF the accused had been involved in any of these, then he would have thought there was little chance of being caught, let alone prosecuted.
I still think that if there were more coppers on the beat, then the chances of "opportunity" crime may lessen.
 
BigglesPiP said:
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Glad to hear that the other guy who shot an intruder in his house was found innocent of murder though.
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Same, if someone broke into my house i would be straight to my gun cabinet. If his morals permit him to break into my house, whats to say he wouldn't stab my mum or gramp if encountered.

Edit:

Denny Crane says it best in Boston Legal:

Denny Crane: I did. It's a good feeling, you know, to shoot a bad guy.

Alan Shore: Really?

Denny Crane: Something you Democrats would never understand. Americans-we're homesteaders. We want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys. And save the life of someone you love.
 
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Pestilence said:
I don't intend to be in any way insulting or confrontational, but I find your naivety astounding.

I do indeed have an "us and them" mentality -- however that is not of my own doing. THEY have made an enemy of ME. We've been nothing but nice, humorous and accomodating to the local rag-tags, yet they continue with their actions. They're completely unreasonable -- they see anyone who doesn't present themselves as a threat as a target.

You admit to never having to experience this kind of life, yet you still make judgements and assumptions as though they're social fact. The underlying issues of broken families, idiotic peers and negative cultural influences is simply overwhelming. There has to be a point where the slate has to wiped clean and everything started again. With how far we've gone, I'm not sure any Government can correct it while keeping the favour of the people as a whole.
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No, I've never had direct experience of my house being vandalised or whatever but that's not like I haven't met people like that before.

I'm not saying that you started it all, simply that saying things like "wipe the slate clean" is obviously not a practical solution and that's just clearly an emotive way of expressing your hatred.

I agree about the 'broken families" and such. Those are social issues so why would I dispute those as being significant causes. Saying that essentially we've gone too far though is nonsense.
 
Azagoth said:
What, you mean like fashioning some sort of time-machine and going back to May 1997 to liquidate the entire New-Labour party?

Let's not forget, it's their loony policies that bred this feral generation. Corporal punishment in schools for instance, even the hardest bullying **** in my year at school had respect for the teachers. He was a right ****, yet when he left school he didn't decide to go around robbing houses and hanging out on street corners drinking white cider and knifing people. Yeah, OK I know it's generic stereotype of "youth culture" but you get the idea.
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Corporal punishment should never be allowed. It would have caused more harm than good (if any) if it was still around when I went to school.
 
ChroniC said:
Id have to say your making a large assumption that theives are are psychological unstable. I would make the generalisation that most theft is premeditated. I also think that most psychologically unwell people still unless full blown mentalist know right from wrong, any other case i would deem mentally retarded, (of course im not saying people do not get trial).
The whole reason it would stop people is the fact its not proportional, people rob because they don't fear the consequences, in so much as if the sentence for robbery was 2 days community service, a lot more people would be robbing, and visa versa in my opinion.
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I'm making no assumptions about all thieves being psychologically unstable, I very specifically included the word "some" to signify a proportion of the whole grouping.

The sentences there are at two extreme ends of the spectrum, death or community service. Do you have evidence that the death penalty works as a deterrant?

The biggest problem it would appear to me is simply that the clear-up rates for crime in general are not high enough, I don't think that the sentences generally are inadequate but if your risk of getting caught is low then the risk of punishment is even lower and therefore on a risk/benefit analysis (for the criminals who do so) it scarcely matters how harsh the punishments are if you are never likely to get caught.
 
martinweston said:
Denny Crane says it best in Boston Legal:

Denny Crane: I did. It's a good feeling, you know, to shoot a bad guy.

Alan Shore: Really?

Denny Crane: Something you Democrats would never understand. Americans-we're homesteaders. We want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys. And save the life of someone you love.
Click to expand...

Off topic - your the first person I've noticed who watches Boston Legal :D Awesome show!! Shame it's finished now :(
 
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