Osteopaths - Who's used these miracle workers?

Sankari · 1 May 2009 at 11:24

Dj_Jestar said:
Yay for crap quoting.

Well, you started it with the ridiculous misrepresentation of a GP visit.

Everything you've posted about orthodox medicine is also done for Chiropractic.

Oh really? Will they refer me to a specialist and suggest an orthodox medication, such as Voltarin? Will they tell me to be treated by someone else, rather than themselves? Will they tell me "You're better off being treated by conventional medicine; I can't help you"?

They are qualified, they are certified, they will ask about your medical history.

Qualified and certified by a mainstream authority? No, qualified and certified by a self-regulating cottage industry (just like Scientology's "auditors") with a history of non-accreditated paperwork and inconsistent education requirements.

Have you read the warnings associated with Vitamins?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle3754205.ece
http://www.personalhealthzone.com/vi...eractions.html
How's that for a supplement that we are bombarded with?

Ironically, that "vitamin supplement" bombardment comes from the "alternative medicine" industry - not from the bastions of conventional medicine. Just look at all the health food shops and online naturopaths desperate to force a ton of vitamins down your throat every day. These pill-pimping quacks have a bottle of goodies for every occasion.

Klytus · 1 May 2009 at 11:25

Dj_Jestar said:
Yay for crap quoting. Everything you've posted about orthodox medicine is also done for Chiropractic. They are qualified, they are certified, they will ask about your medical history.

Thats irrelevant. You get qualified and certified crystal therapists/stone therapists in fact any type complementary therapist (which is what osteopaths and chiropracters are - See NHS direct). They will also ask about your medical history. It doesn't mean that what they do is proven to be any more beneficial than placebo. That is what Randomised controlled trials and systematic reviews are for - See my previous post.

Dj_Jestar · 1 May 2009 at 11:28

Evangelion said:
Oh really? Will they refer me to a specialist and suggest an orthodox medication, such as Voltarin? Will they tell me to be treated by someone else, rather than themselves? Will they tell me "You're better off being treated by conventional medicine; I can't help you"?

Yes. Is this now the part were you will post "So why bother going in the first place?" they will refer you if the condition requires it.

Qualified and certified by a mainstream authority? No, qualified and certified by a self-regulating cottage industry (just like Scientology's "auditors") with a history of non-accreditated paperwork and inconsistent education requirements.

self-regulating? Just like the orthodox system you mean? Regulation of Doctors/Surgeons, by Doctors/Surgeons? The yes. Just like that.

Ironically, that "vitamin supplement" bombardment comes from the "alternative medicine" industry - not from the bastions of conventional medicine. Just look at all the health food shops and online naturopaths desperate to force a ton of vitamins down your throat every day. These pill-pimping quacks have a bottle of goodies for every occasion.

Pill pimping quacks.. Just like your GP/Specialist for prescribing you anti-inflammatory pills and a few stretches. Hmm.

Dj_Jestar · 1 May 2009 at 11:29

delbuenno said:
Thats irrelevant. You get qualified and certified crystal therapists/stone therapists in fact any type complementary therapist (which is what osteopaths and chiropracters are - See NHS direct). They will also ask about your medical history. It doesn't mean that what they do is proven to be any more beneficial than placebo. That is what Randomised controlled trials and systematic reviews are for - See my previous post.

Irrelevant? Hardly. Oh, but it counters your argument so it must be. I never disputed them being complimentary therapists. Only that they aren't "quacks"

oli collett · 1 May 2009 at 11:33

For once, I have nothing to say on this because Evangelion & Delbuenno have covered it.

Delbuenno has posted meta-analysis on this Jetstar - you might want to look at that before you go further. And pick up a copy of bad science.

oli collett · 1 May 2009 at 11:34

Dj_Jestar said:
Irrelevant? Hardly. Oh, but it counters your argument so it must be. I never disputed them being complimentary therapists. Only that they aren't "quacks"

"complimentary therapy" is another word for treatment which has no proof of effect beyond the placebo. How is that not quackery.

Dj_Jestar · 1 May 2009 at 11:45

oli collett said:
"complimentary therapy" is another word for treatment which has no proof of effect beyond the placebo. How is that not quackery.

*sigh* so having crippling (and I do mean crippling) back spasms for a couple of days with no sign of easing, despite stretching and so forth not relieving pain, being relieved by a 15min session at the chiropractor is just placebo. Yeah, sure it is.

Klytus · 1 May 2009 at 11:49

Dj_Jestar said:
Irrelevant? Hardly. Oh, but it counters your argument so it must be. I never disputed them being complimentary therapists. Only that they aren't "quacks"

I stated why your point in that post was irrelevant but nothing you have posted counters my argument. Please post two sytematic reviews that conclude the efficacy of osteopathy and or chiropractic above that of placebo (to counter the two I have cited which state it is not). I will gladly conceed just as soon as you can do that.

Klytus · 1 May 2009 at 11:51

Dj_Jestar said:
*sigh* so having crippling (and I do mean crippling) back spasms for a couple of days with no sign of easing, despite stretching and so forth not relieving pain, being relieved by a 15min session at the chiropractor is just placebo. Yeah, sure it is.

Yes Thats EXACTLY what the research I have cited states. And that research is considered the GOLD STANDARD and the best available. So to re-iterate YES it is placebo effect.

dowie · 1 May 2009 at 11:52

Dj_Jestar said:
Have you read the warnings associated with Vitamins?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3754205.ece
http://www.personalhealthzone.com/vitamins_supplements/side_effects_interactions.html
How's that for a supplement that we are bombarded with?

Yes, you are correct - it is supplement which we are bombarded with by the alternative medicine community which, if you hadn't already realised by now, are mostly quacks.

Nutritionists are mostly to blame - like Chiropractors & homeopaths they also have their own dodgy colleges and governing bodies.

How about anti-biotics?
http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/antibiotics.html

Oh wait, it's conventional medicine, must be safe.

I think you'll find that most GPs and pharmacists are happy to tell you about any side effects and will also be happy to list them on the packaging.

Unlike say homeopathy drugs have side effects because they actually have an effect in the first place.

dowie · 1 May 2009 at 12:00

dmpoole said:
We've been using Complimentary Therapy for many years by using a Vicar, Iman & Priest and with some people it works wonders where conventional medicine doesn't.
There is no denying that a placebo is a very powerful treatment.

Yes thats great and not the point I'm making. They are still quacks! I'm fully aware that they 'work' as in have an effect for the people naive enough to call them 'miracle workers' as per the OP.

A magic crystal healer will induce a placebo effect in someone who 'believes' in the treatment. Accupuncturist will have quite a powerful placebo effect (perhpas because the treatment is rather more invasive)

They are all still quacks and we shouldn't give them too much credibility - in the case of Chiropractor they basically just put people at risk and mis-use x-ray machines

cjmUK · 1 May 2009 at 12:00

Dj_Jestar said:
You make very good points, but I must point out that a visit to the osteopath is anything but a good rub, in fact it bloody hurts when they work on the problem muscle(s)

Point of Order: Osteopathy mainly involves manipulation of bones and joints. Obviously, it affects muscles, but the Osteopath is actually working your joints.

Evangelion said:
Withdraw all forms of modern medicine from society and see how long we last on a diet of homeopathy, chiropractors and osteopaths.

Way to go there... The OP is on about Osteopathy, but you associate them with homeopaths and chiropractors which are completely different. Perhaps you would also associate GPs with Witch Doctors and Shamen?

D D Danneh said:
Those darn osteopaths and their beliefs. Pah, who in their right mind would believe that you actually can damage your joints? Bunch of silly quacks.

And psychologists too. Silly quacks, believing that people have brains. What a load of tosh.

Indeed.

We are all happy to believe that Physiotherapy (medical intervention through the manipulation of muscle systems) and even massage (effectively a faint shadow of Physio) as acceptable treatment for various ailments, but Osteopathy (medical intervention through the manipulation of bones and joints) is accused of being mumbo-jumbo.

When a physio recommends hot & cold treatment, he's using a scientifically proven method of drawing blood to a problem area to aid relief and healing. When an Osteo does this, it's mumbo jumbo.

Arethese guys making it up when they prove the benefits of osteopathic manipulation for the treatment of lower back pain? When these guys claim to finally provide an evidence base for the cellular mechanisms underlying osteopathic treatment for fibromyalgia, are they lying?

Unfortunately, because NHS provision for physio and osteopathy is poor at best, and non-existent at worst (and because it earns them more money!), most Osteopaths and Physiotherapists set up private practices. When a physio offers 'alternative therapies' such as reflexology, we compliment them on offer a comprehensive set of services to the community, but if an Osteopath offers similar services, they are labelled 'snake oil salesmen'.

This whole debate consists of ignorance with a liberal dose of hypocrisy.

Dj_Jestar · 1 May 2009 at 12:03

delbuenno said:
Yes Thats EXACTLY what the research I have cited states. And that research is considered the GOLD STANDARD and the best available. So to re-iterate YES it is placebo effect.

Uhuh, sure. So I was imagining the pain all along.

nst68 · 1 May 2009 at 12:03

I used to see an Osteopath off and on for about 4 years (a well recommended one and was always busy).
Had on/off back problems and he always sorted it out, but then 6 months or so it would reoccur.

When I moved and my back went again my gf suggested I go and see a sports physio she went to.
Went to see him and almost straight away he said "your right leg is longer than your left".
Saw him for 3 or 4 sessions of traction and accupunture, but more importantly he corrected things like how I got in and out of bed, walked up stairs and stood up from a chair.
I now follow his advice and wearing a wedge in all my left shoes, and haven't had any problems for over 18 months.

I think the difference between the physio and the osteopath is that the osteopath was more concerned with cracking my neck and back.
He just treated the symptoms and not the cause.

Dj_Jestar · 1 May 2009 at 12:06

nst68 said:
I used to see an Osteopath off and on for about 4 years (a well recommended one and was always busy).
Had on/off back problems and he always sorted it out, but then 6 months or so it would reoccur.

When I moved and my back went again my gf suggested I go and see a sports physio she went to.
Went to see him and almost straight away he said "your right leg is longer than your left".
Saw him for 3 or 4 sessions of traction and accupunture, but more importantly he corrected things like how I got in and out of bed, walked up stairs and stood up from a chair.
I now follow his advice and wearing a wedge in all my left shoes, and haven't had any problems for over 18 months.

I think the difference between the physio and the osteopath is that the osteopath was more concerned with cracking my neck and back.
He just treated the symptoms and not the cause.

Swings and round-abouts. My chiropractor has pointed out things like how i carry my gym bag (on one shoulder) causes problems, and how I sit at my desk etc. whilst my GP (who is useless) never tries to identify the cause of any of my ailments.

richb_83 · 1 May 2009 at 12:07

My step dad is a registared osteopath has his own surgery in Brum....free treatment 4tw!

cjmUK · 1 May 2009 at 12:07

dowie said:
A magic crystal healer will induce a placebo effect in someone who 'believes' in the treatment. Accupuncturist will have quite a powerful placebo effect (perhpas because the treatment is rather more invasive)

You are acting like a placebo effect is a bad thing. For certain conditions, placebo is the only available treatment. In fact, clinical trials have proven that even when you give a patient a placebo and tell them that they have a placebo there is still a positive impact when compared to no treatment at all.

It's all psychology, but the bottom line is that it has an effect.

They are all still quacks and we shouldn't give them too much credibility - in the case of Chiropractor they basically just put people at risk and mis-use x-ray machines

Is this thread called 'Magic Crystal Healers - Who has used these miracle workers?'? No. So why go on about Accupuncturists and Magic Crystal healers, and anything in fact apart from Osteopaths?

Sankari · 1 May 2009 at 12:09

cjmUK said:
Way to go there... The OP is on about Osteopathy, but you associate them with homeopaths and chiropractors which are completely different.

I associate them with homeopaths and chiropractors because they are all part of the "alternative medicine" industry.

Perhaps you would also associate GPs with Witch Doctors and Shamen?

Of course not. Why would I?

When a physio recommends hot & cold treatment, he's using a scientifically proven method of drawing blood to a problem area to aid relief and healing. When an Osteo does this, it's mumbo jumbo.

No. I would not accuse an osteopath of "mumbo jumbo" if he is employing methods already proven by orthodox medical science. However, I would feel compelled to point out that by doing so, he is resorting to conventional medicine - not osteopathy.

This whole debate consists of ignorance with a liberal dose of hypocrisy.

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Klytus · 1 May 2009 at 12:09

Dj_Jestar said:
Uhuh, sure. So I was imagining the pain all along.

Of course not! Don't be so ridiculous! Have you ANY idea at all about what the placebo effect is and how it works at all? :confused:

Dj_Jestar · 1 May 2009 at 12:16

Have you any idea how it was utterly impossible for it to be the placebo effect, at least in my case? :confused: