ID card scheme to be launched in Manchester

codec said:
its not naive, just willingness to change. I would rather have 1 id card than have a drivers licence, a passport, a national insurance card and anyother id card for that matter. Not only that but it does what we have today at a better standard. I dont see how you can complain about having an improved version of what we already have in place.

think of it. Night clubs dont have to rely on different types of id cards meaning their bouncers dont need the extra training. Police dont need to mess about with people "leaving their documents" when pulling a vehicle over... you know what Im getting at.

and for people saying "what happens when you lose your card!" well if your dumb enough to do that you do the same as you would with a bank card :p
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So you think that it is a good idea to spend 5 billion that we dont have on an ID card that does exactly the same as a biometric passport. You go to a club and you know that they will accept a passport, driving license or 1 of maybe a few other forms of ID. Its a minefield I know, how do people manage.

We have a lot of illegal immagrants in this country, correct? So do you reckon that every one of these has a beautifully forged passport, driving licence and national insurance number that checks out. Im gonna speculate that they dont. The system can work perfectly as it is, it just doesnt. Making people pay £60 for an ID card is ridiculous and pointless. Just another one of my favourite peoples retarded ideas. P.s. it Jacqui Smith.

How many people a year die from terrorism in this country?
 
codec said:
Its not being forced its clearly being said its voluntary already like the current electronic passport system.
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Aside from the people that are being forced to buy it of course.

And what about in a few years time when the government decides that its "in our best interests" to make them mandatory for everyone?

£5 Billion is a low, inaccurate, and obviously massaged government figure. As with all government IT schemes it will cost twice or thrice that. And then heaven forbid your data going missing when some idiot drops the usb stick carrying millions of peoples biometrics.

And do you seriously think well funded people with criminal intent won't be able to forge these?
 
fez said:
So you think that it is a good idea to spend 5 billion that we dont have on an ID card that does exactly the same as a biometric passport.
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I completely agree - if I had the option I would much preffer them to just upgrade them to a chip and pin standard or what ever the latest technology has to offer but for some reason they see it fit to use id cards. We dont know why this is but we dont have a say in the matter. Maybe its something a little research from our local mp can turn up answers.

fez said:
You go to a club and you know that they will accept a passport, driving license or 1 of maybe a few other forms of ID. Its a minefield I know, how do people manage.
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How many times have we all gone to a night club and heard the phrase "I left my driving licence at home, my passport is expired, dog ate my wallet".

these "methods of id" are *imo* too stretched in reason to carry - some people dont drive, other people dont like to carry a passport book with them, others just dont have ID.
Which is why I think a unified card would be more beneficial as it holds more purpose to have one.
Those that drive ALWAYS have their licence on them (unless due to good reason) and that is just one of the many unified reasons why a id card would benefit.

I completely agree - nobody will find any use of an ID card if they cant use it for anything other than giving away credentials. What perks do we get out of that? But if we get the (and Im gonna sound like gillette here) ability of 5 cards in 1 then I can only see benefit when they already have those details on you anyway.

fez said:
We have a lot of illegal immagrants in this country, correct? So do you reckon that every one of these has a beautifully forged passport, driving licence and national insurance number that checks out. Im gonna speculate that they dont.
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what does this have to do with a comparison between the old and new system?

fez said:
The system can work perfectly as it is, it just doesnt.
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the phrase "if its not broke dont fix it" doesnt apply when we are using a system thats older than myself. We are in an era that is way beyond the days of when the passport system etc started which means we can and should handle our data more effectively.

fez said:
Making people pay £60 for an ID card is ridiculous and pointless. Just another one of my favourite peoples retarded ideas. P.s. it Jacqui Smith.
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Completely agree, its unjustified when they already have a new passport system. And I think jaqui smith is a complete tool for even having to get such a fee in the first place - its completely unneccesary. Especially for its current limited use, but I think she has a good base idea but needs a lot of expanding on.

We're in an age where we are using electronic communication more than mail, but you dont want important people in this country to have your details digitally nor do you want to use those details digitally.

You want everything done by forms, but complain because your passport/drivers licence/ marriage/ divorce certificate has taken a month to go through or even better.

you've filled out a 10 page form only to have it returned because you spelt a word wrong and have to do it all again....

[sarcasm]but all this is much better than having it all done in one go.[/sarcasm]
 
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platypus said:
So what advantage is there to bringing them in?
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in a nut shell convenience to you (easier to carry around)
faster form applications (due to a central server)
cheaper to renew (one card instead of several)
if you lose it you only have to call one company

the list goes on....

but this is of course if they do eventually merge all the other sectors into one. otherwise this entire scheme is a waste of time. But personally I cant see why not if they do it right

I really dont understand why people are giving the "they are taking our liberties away" rubbish. the only extra information they are getting is your finger print and like has been previously stated - the police can get that.
 
codec said:
but this is of course if they do eventually merge all the other sectors into one. otherwise this entire scheme is a waste of time. But personally I cant see why not if they do it right
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It will not happen. I've seen quite a few public sector projects (both IT intensive and light) and they generally fail due to long timescales, large stakeholder groups and general mismanagement.

There will be massive overspend, the system will be untrusted and it'll be a matter of hours after launch that they'll find fakes, identity stealing and data loss instances. Those that haven't yet been branded failures are purely because the loopholes haven't been reported or documented.

The key question for ANY project is "what problem or opportunity are we trying to solve?". There is absolutely no clear case for introducing these.
 
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I ain't having one unless I'm forced to at gunpoint.

It's another b*stard tax. Updated photo for my driving license = £20. :-(
 
caff said:
It will not happen. I've seen quite a few public sector projects (both IT intensive and light) and they generally fail due to long timescales, large stakeholder groups and general mismanagement.

There will be massive overspend, the system will be untrusted and it'll be a matter of hours after launch that they'll find fakes, identity stealing and data loss instances. Those that haven't yet been branded failures are purely because the loopholes haven't been reported or documented.

The key question for ANY project is "what problem or opportunity are we trying to solve?". There is absolutely no clear case for introducing these.
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define a clear case?

Just because our government is incapable of organising a **** up in a brewery doesnt mean that the whole idea is bad. If the information being stored was the same info they have now, and if it was all in one card - wouldnt it be great to:

instead of send your passport/visa off to be stamped/approved, you just swipe your card at a travel agency and it can be reviewed (no losing details by post, easier to manage)

to not have to spend 20 for a new drivers licence, 20 for a new passport

to only carry one card instead of 4 and only have to remember one set of details (if you dont have the card on you) instead of 4

To not have to worry about where you put all your different documents and worry if they are up to date.

Not have to go to the police station because you left your drivers licence documents at home (who hasnt done that :p)

there's so many benefits I dunno why its not being done. I mean if they dont do it - no way am even remotely interested in it - it has no use. It doesnt. what use do we have for a card that isnt being used to merge the only existing services we have? what benefit would WE get from it because thats what its all about at the end of the day. the current system is in place because its needed and we have these systems because we need them to do what we want (drive, travel, live in the country etc) but this ID card. if its just an ID card, Im quite happy to have a validdate card. or use my drivers licence. It holds no use to me on its own. Which is why I ASSUMED it would be used to do that.... I mean why the heck not?! its not like these departments wouldnt be needed any more, they still would because of the overhead.
 
codec said:
define a clear case?

Just because our government is incapable of organising a **** up in a brewery doesnt mean that the whole idea is bad. If the information being stored was the same info they have now, and if it was all in one card - wouldnt it be great to:

instead of send your passport/visa off to be stamped/approved, you just swipe your card at a travel agency and it can be reviewed (no losing details by post, easier to manage)

to not have to spend 20 for a new drivers licence, 20 for a new passport

to only carry one card instead of 4 and only have to remember one set of details (if you dont have the card on you) instead of 4

To not have to worry about where you put all your different documents and worry if they are up to date.

Not have to go to the police station because you left your drivers licence documents at home (who hasnt done that :p)

there's so many benefits I dunno why its not being done. I mean if they dont do it - no way am even remotely interested in it - it has no use. It doesnt. what use do we have for a card that isnt being used to merge the only existing services we have? what benefit would WE get from it because thats what its all about at the end of the day. the current system is in place because its needed and we have these systems because we need them to do what we want (drive, travel, live in the country etc) but this ID card. if its just an ID card, Im quite happy to have a validdate card. or use my drivers licence. It holds no use to me on its own. Which is why I ASSUMED it would be used to do that.... I mean why the heck not?! its not like these departments wouldnt be needed any more, they still would because of the overhead.
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Here are two for you:-

1) ID Scheme for Horses & Donkeys

2) National Gun Database

Both IT Systems for these were a complete shambles, dates missed, budgets missed etc.

If the ID card was accepted universally it may have some use, but this will not happen and if the Government already have all my data then what is the point of this card.

It will not make this country a safer place and will go well over budget; I will never get one, or will ever carry one, if we are eventually forced to acquire them.
 
Muffin` said:
But if you don't drive you don't need a driving license, if you never leave the country, you don't need a passport.
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Even if you don't drive and never leave the country, you still need some form of identification (typically proof of age). I got a passport when I was 18 even though I didn't actually travel abroad until I was 23.
 
I don't know who I trust less with my information, the Government or a random high street pharmacy.
 
I consider anyone who voluntarily signs up to this ID card scheme to be a traitor, who places no value on their own freedom or that of the rest of us.
 
BlackDragon said:
I spent a long time studying the ID card scheme for a coursework at uni. What was interesting was that biometric passports and biometric ID cards do exactly the same thing, and similar amounts of data. As biometric passports are already being issued (and is the officially recognised document for travelling abroad), and that citizens aren't required to have one (an ID card), what is the point of the card exactly?
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Where did you get the idea that an ID card would be voluntary?

Oh, it might be for a trial period, but the point is to (a) make it mandatory and (b) make it required for almost everything, i.e. to track everyone as much as possible.

Even if it was somehow free it would be an appalling idea, but it's also a waste of in the region of £10 billion to set up and £500 million a year to run.

It was the final straw in convincing me to vote Conservative for the first time ever. Conservative is the new liberal.
 
codec said:
[..]Not only that but it does what we have today at a better standard.[..]
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That sums up the key issue - you don't know what the incoming system is. It is very far indeed from being what we have today.

The ID cards are to a large extent misdirection. The key point of the system is a central database. ID cards are just a means of linking you with the ever-increasing data on you in the database. They could just as easily use your finger prints or retina scan, or chip everyone to make it even "better".

EDIT: I don't understand how anyone can believe the "it's the same as today" argument, because the inherent contradiction is so obvious. If it's the same as we have now, why waste a vast amount of money on it? The argument is simply "let's waste a fortune" - why is that a good idea? Does the country have too much money at the moment?
 
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Angilion said:
That sums up the key issue - you don't know what the incoming system is. It is very far indeed from being what we have today.

The ID cards are to a large extent misdirection. The key point of the system is a central database. ID cards are just a means of linking you with the ever-increasing data on you in the database. They could just as easily use your finger prints or retina scan, or chip everyone to make it even "better".

EDIT: I don't understand how anyone can believe the "it's the same as today" argument, because the inherent contradiction is so obvious. If it's the same as we have now, why waste a vast amount of money on it? The argument is simply "let's waste a fortune" - why is that a good idea? Does the country have too much money at the moment?
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only 2 things matter:

what info they have
how its used

currently all the systems are old, and proven not the most reliable, forms going missing etc etc let alone the problems both sides have like identity theft etc. I just wish jaqui smith actually had the capacity to develope her own ideas after she's brain stormed because we just keep getting crap off her.
 
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