BARCELONA Grand Prix 2009 - Race 5/17

Jenson has mentioned having to change his style to be more agressive to win Monaco and being willing to do that, could be an interesting "race". His record there is pretty rubbish thanks to team race bans, crashes and injury. Hopefully we'll see a chnge this time around.

Jense said the same about the Spanish GP. He said he had to be a lot more aggressive and ragged to get the performance out of the car. Although apparently he didn't get his setup in such a good position as Rubens did during practice, so they switched Jenson's car to have the same setup as Rubens...

However it is Jenson's ability of being able to adapt his driving style on a race by race basis that is beginning to set him apart and make him appear to be WDC worthy. Some drivers cannot do this, or it takes them many many races to learn how to do it.
 
Can somone explain why many people consider Kubica to be one of the best drivers?

Heidfeld is considered to be a good driver. Kubica generally out performs him. Last year, he was in a BMW car that wasn't very good, yet he got a race win and performed well in the WDC.

His career record isn't that impressive, particularly compared to the likes of Hamilton.

Hamilton is probably one of the best drivers in F1. Barring Alonso, I can't see anyone who is better than him (he matched Alonso in his first season in F1 and became World Champ in his second season, while totally destroying his team-mate). So comparing Kubica to Hamilton is unfair.

Remove Alonso and Hamilton from the equation and you will see that Kubica is arguable one of the best drivers in F1, alongside Vettel.
 
However it is Jenson's ability of being able to adapt his driving style on a race by race basis that is beginning to set him apart and make him appear to be WDC worthy. Some drivers cannot do this, or it takes them many many races to learn how to do it.

Yep.
 
Can somone explain why many people consider Kubica to be one of the best drivers?

His career record isn't that impressive, particularly compared to the likes of Hamilton.

A podium finish in his 3rd F1 race, 6th overall in the title race in his first full year despite missing a race due to injury, 7 podiums and 4th in the title race in '08 equal on points with the previous year's champion....are we not counting this as impressive any more? If so, I missed that memo.

As for comparing him to Hamilton - Hamilton has had championship capable cars for his first two seasons in F1, Kubica has had BMWs. Good cars, and the '08 car was capable of winning races, but not really good enough to go up against the McLaren and Ferrari of the last two years and come out ahead over the course of a season. This year, the car appears to have been spoiled by the compromises necessary to fit KERS and yet he was still in with a shout of winning the Aussie GP had he not gotten into that spot of bother with Vettel.
 
Being smooth = less mistakes so more consistent overall. Jenson can keep good pace being smooth so although he's not pulling away, he's maintaining position. The cars behind might be going all out but if they **** up, they lose more than they would toning it down a bit. Hamilton and Alonso are a prime example of this but when the cars are hooked up, mistakes are minimal. We have to remember that tyre wear and fuel usage are a key factor in F1. When the pit stops come, Jenson takes the risk and bangs in some ragged edge laps to maintain or gain position. He also displays an aggressive style in quali, and I was very impressed with his pole this weekend.

I think he's one of the thinking mans drivers like Prost was. There's not many drivers like that out there at the moment as they have their engineers doing all the thinking for them.


I feel quite bad for Rubens at the moment. Brawn certainly are the nicest guys in F1 along with Reb Bull and I'd hate to see a rift between the drivers. Jenson obviously sees this with his radio comments and Brawn seems to be encouraging racing between them and no there's favouratism aparently. Brawn has said that it's great he's unhappy and wants to win as that's the kind of drivers he wants in his team, especially when Rubens was obviously no2 to Schumi all those years.
 
I was thinking more of their respective records prior to entering F1.

I had to check this one, as I wasn't sure. Score one for my failing memory I guess....*sigh*

The two raced against each other in 2004, with the Formula 3 Euroseries. Hamilton finished the year fifth, Kubica seventh. So, hardly blowing him away there....Hamilton stopped in F3 to win the title the next year while Kubica moved up to the World Series by Renault and won that. That got him the testing gig at BMW and ultimately the race seat when JV buggered off. Hamilton meanwhile went to GP2 rather than moving straight up to F1. And if you want to go back as far as their karting days, I believe Kubica won 6 titles in 3 years so his record there is certainly comparable with Hamilton.
 
Being smooth and technical means very little. I'm afraid a lot of Button fans seem to make a lot of this.

The fastest single lap driver ever, was Ayrton Senna. He was anything but smooth when driving through corners. He used to pepper his throttle and clutch through every corner, sensing as the car was getting away away from him. Schumacher would also do something similar, where he would be dabbing his throttle throughout the corner.

Button's style is to brake once into a corner and accelerate once out of it. That is smooth and is actually the way I drive karts and F1 race simulations. However, as I have found out, it isnt the fastest method of taking a corner.

Even Button himself admitted this weekend that a smooth approach is actually slower than the more aggressive, on-the-edge, ragged style, which he had to adopt, as he progressed throughout the race weekend.

Last year, everybody thought that Button's smooth style would serve him well, after all the driving aids were removed. Barrichello went on to outperform him last years.

If you really want to find out about driving styles, try out some F1 simulations and you will get a better idea of race car driving is about.

In summary, smooth driving isnt the best or the fastest.


being smoth and technical mean a great deal in most motorsports including F1. Sure there are faster drivers but Button is constantly clean and precise meaning less tyre wear, better fuel usage and overall less stress on the car.

Senna and S'makka's driving style were very similar. More on the edge almost sliding the car around the corners. Not saying that's bad as you only have to look at their records.. However, they also had great cars that could handle that driving style.

As I said above. Button may not be the fastest but his driving is consistant lap after lap. You don't have to be the fastest single lap driver to win races.

Every track is different hence him having to change his style. His own technical style has worked well in 4 out of the 5 races. He's just proving that he can adapt to the track.

4/5 race wins this season would prove that smooth is best and fastest :p
 
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I had to check this one, as I wasn't sure. Score one for my failing memory I guess....*sigh*

The two raced against each other in 2004, with the Formula 3 Euroseries. Hamilton finished the year fifth, Kubica seventh. So, hardly blowing him away there....Hamilton stopped in F3 to win the title the next year while Kubica moved up to the World Series by Renault and won that. That got him the testing gig at BMW and ultimately the race seat when JV buggered off. Hamilton meanwhile went to GP2 rather than moving straight up to F1. And if you want to go back as far as their karting days, I believe Kubica won 6 titles in 3 years so his record there is certainly comparable with Hamilton.


Based on the fact Kubica has pretty much out-quallied Hamiliton so far, in a car that many say is better then the MacLaren effort, how does LH manage to dramatically out-perform him in the race?

I know it's hard to judge drivers talents as absolutes due to the overwhelming affect the car has in the equation, but clearly this is the time LH is stepping up to the mark..

Just a small point, I never rated LH, and was happy to go along with your view of 'its the car'.. until that is I saw him on Top Gear, I know it's hardly scientific, but doing the 'F1 driver in a reasonably priced car', LH amazed the Stig by posting an almost identical time to his in wettish conditions as the Stig had done in the dry.. in contrast JB fell short of Nigel Mansell..
Of course there isn't much you can say about how this reflects on JB's abilities, it's a normal car afterall, but for LH to do the time he did in contrast to the STIG's was IMO an indication that there is something tangible to LH..
 
being smoth and technical mean a great deal in most motorsports including F1. Sure there are faster drivers but Button is constantly clean and precise meaning less tyre wear, better fuel usage and overall less stress on the car.

Senna and S'makka's driving style were very similar. More on the edge almost sliding the car around the corners. Not saying that's bad as you only have to look at their records.. However, they also had great cars that could handle that driving style.

As I said above. Button may not be the fastest but his driving is consistant lap after lap. You don't have to be the fastest single lap driver to win races.

Every track is different hence him having to change his style. His own technical style has worked well in 4 out of the 5 races. He's just proving that he can adapt to the track.

4/5 race wins this season would prove that smooth is best and fastest :p

It is a good point, but I think personally that JB is just in the right car at the right time..
And by that I mean, the car absolutely suits him down to the ground, it clearly rewards his driving style in spades..
However, based on everything else, I just have this feeling that if the car doesn't suit him so much, he struggles, and to be truly 'world class (tm)' you have to show it in a mix of driving styles/cars.

I still like the bloke, given his car and his style, It's clear he's at the top at the moment.
 
Based on the fact Kubica has pretty much out-quallied Hamiliton so far, in a car that many say is better then the MacLaren effort, how does LH manage to dramatically out-perform him in the race?

Like I've said before - the McLaren seemingly is a mediocre car elevated by having KERS for overtaking and defending, the BMW is a reasonable car dragged down by the compromises necessary for KERS.

Don't misunderstand me - I'm 100% sure that the only reason the McLaren is doing as well as it is is Lewis Hamilton. He's a great driver, and certainly has the potential to win many titles in his career if the car is up to it. I just don't think that this means suddenly that Kubica isn't also a pretty bloody good driver, because he quite plainly is.
 
Just a small point, I never rated LH, and was happy to go along with your view of 'its the car'.. until that is I saw him on Top Gear, I know it's hardly scientific, but doing the 'F1 driver in a reasonably priced car', LH amazed the Stig by posting an almost identical time to his in wettish conditions as the Stig had done in the dry.. in contrast JB fell short of Nigel Mansell..
Of course there isn't much you can say about how this reflects on JB's abilities, it's a normal car afterall, but for LH to do the time he did in contrast to the STIG's was IMO an indication that there is something tangible to LH..

We learn nothing about the ability of F1 drivers from their Top Gear outings.
 
you do

raw driving talent. This is the ability of somebody to pick up a car they've never been in before, and drive it quick.

Sebastien Loeb is a case in point.
 
Like I've said before - the McLaren seemingly is a mediocre car elevated by having KERS for overtaking and defending, the BMW is a reasonable car dragged down by the compromises necessary for KERS.

Don't misunderstand me - I'm 100% sure that the only reason the McLaren is doing as well as it is is Lewis Hamilton. He's a great driver, and certainly has the potential to win many titles in his career if the car is up to it. I just don't think that this means suddenly that Kubica isn't also a pretty bloody good driver, because he quite plainly is.

That still doesn't address the salient point..

The BMW is reasonably quicker in qualifying then the MacLaren, Kubica comfortably sits his car ahead of Hamilton on the grid, but come to the race, and it's clear that he is not able to deliver any near the level Hamilton is.. I'm sure teams etc have some part of this, but with the lap time advantage there is no real reason Kubica is not finishing ahead of Hamilton.

I don't dispute Kubica is a good driver, I loved some of his performances last year, but in all honesty, based on quite overwhelming results so far, he is not at the same level as LH.
 
That still doesn't address the salient point..

What salient point? I responded to chrisd's assertion that Hamilton has a much better record than Kubica pre-F1. You then chime in with something about this year.

The BMW is reasonably quicker in qualifying then the MacLaren, Kubica comfortably sits his car ahead of Hamilton on the grid, but come to the race, and it's clear that he is not able to deliver any near the level Hamilton is.. I'm sure teams etc have some part of this, but with the lap time advantage there is no real reason Kubica is not finishing ahead of Hamilton.

I don't dispute Kubica is a good driver, I loved some of his performances last year, but in all honesty, based on quite overwhelming results so far, he is not at the same level as LH.

Ah, I see. That's what you're objecting to - something that I never said. Excellent, glad to see this forum is still firing on all thrusters :)

Seriously Demon - I've never once said that Kubica is a better driver than Hamilton, or even his equal. I just take issue with chrisd's assertion that he isn't an impressive driver.
 
What salient point? I responded to chrisd's assertion that Hamilton has a much better record than Kubica pre-F1. You then chime in with something about this year.

Seriously Demon - I've never once said that Kubica is a better driver than Hamilton, or even his equal. I just take issue with chrisd's assertion that he isn't an impressive driver.
Sorry if there is some confusion, this sounded like you where saying that Kubica could be compared to Hamilton based on 2008 and 2009 performances. I thought it was a good point up for discussion, as I felt you had missed some facts that actually indicate Kubica is not comparable to Hamilton :confused:,
JRS said:
As for comparing him to Hamilton - Hamilton has had championship capable cars for his first two seasons in F1, Kubica has had BMWs. Good cars, and the '08 car was capable of winning races, but not really good enough to go up against the McLaren and Ferrari of the last two years and come out ahead over the course of a season. This year, the car appears to have been spoiled by the compromises necessary to fit KERS and yet he was still in with a shout of winning the Aussie GP had he not gotten into that spot of bother with Vettel.



Ah, I see. That's what you're objecting to - something that I never said. Excellent, glad to see this forum is still firing on all thrusters :)
I think you are confusing me with someone else, I am one of the last people to belong to the OC bandwagon when it comes to this type of thing.. sensible debate with facts and a bit of understanding is more my cup of tea :) I think we are on the same page, even if our viewpoints may differ :)
 
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Being smooth and technical means very little. I'm afraid a lot of Button fans seem to make a lot of this.

The fastest single lap driver ever, was Ayrton Senna. He was anything but smooth when driving through corners. He used to pepper his throttle and clutch through every corner, sensing as the car was getting away away from him. Schumacher would also do something similar, where he would be dabbing his throttle throughout the corner.

Button's style is to brake once into a corner and accelerate once out of it. That is smooth and is actually the way I drive karts and F1 race simulations. However, as I have found out, it isnt the fastest method of taking a corner.

Even Button himself admitted this weekend that a smooth approach is actually slower than the more aggressive, on-the-edge, ragged style, which he had to adopt, as he progressed throughout the race weekend.

Last year, everybody thought that Button's smooth style would serve him well, after all the driving aids were removed. Barrichello went on to outperform him last years.

If you really want to find out about driving styles, try out some F1 simulations and you will get a better idea of race car driving is about.

In summary, smooth driving isnt the best or the fastest.

Already been proved in another thread with the Schumacher/Senna video that senna and Ms didn't have similar styles. Senna blipped the throttle like a madman to control the car MS used a much smoother throttle and corrected the car by sawing at the steering wheel.

I love the way your still clinging on to one season where Rubens out performed Jenson. In a season when I told you many many times that when the car was good jenson would bury him. He has.

Who cares about one season when the car is almost last who comes first. It's when the car is a winner it matters. DC beat the backside out of Mika in 97 and had to gift Hakkinen a win. When the car was a championship winner there was never any doubt as to who was faster.

I don't think Jensons performance comes down to anything more sinister than he had been run down, didn't know which way to turn. There was no where to go. His number was up.

Both Ross Brawn and Rubens are speaking very highly of Jenson.

"His boss Ross Brawn - the man who guided Michael Schumacher to seven world championships - was ready with the superlatives afterwards.

"Even with the car we had last year I saw little flashes of something exceptional from him and the guys on the team that had been here a few years were always telling me he was a bit special," said Brawn. "I just had not been privileged to see it on a regular basis.

"But now with a good car he is able to deliver and I think that first proper win from the front in Australia [Button won in Hungary 2006 but in an incident-packed race from the middle of the grid] has given him a confidence that has brought an extra dimension.

"His speed is quite exceptional, yet you would never know it watching him because he's so incredibly smooth."


Button's smooth style means he is deceptively fast in the car
Earlier this year, Button's team-mate Rubens Barrichello - the man who partnered Schumacher for six years at Ferrari - told Brazilian reporters that judging from what he was seeing this year, Button was as talented and skilled as Schumacher, only not as consistent."

Ross Brawn says he's speed is quite exceptional, but no you know more with your simulation runs on the PC. Hmmmmm who to believe Ross Brawn a man whose been proven to be the best team principle in history or a guy on a forum who spent much of last season telling the world how jenson was washed up. Don't believe me do a search for your own username and see just how many posts you made informing us all how jenson was a wash up. :p

Then we have hamilton a driver attacking his own team like a child that expected to win all the time and is seen as driving the socks off the because he's beating a team mate that shouldn't be in f1 anymore. Beating a team mate that's not even an equal within the team and is there purely as a no 2 because it won't upset the team leader. At the very least Button doesn't have that luxary.

I don't think hamilton is driving anywhere near his best and I think they need to get him someone faster to push the best out of him like in 2007.
 
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