New BTCC rules 2011 ‘Next Generation Touring Car’ (NGTC)

[Jonnycoupe]

The Rear Diff would not affect passenger space but would only impact on boot space (as it is located behind the passenger compartment). The diff is also not that large of a component overall.

What about the bulhead behing pushed back at the front thanks amongst other things the 500mm NCAP squsih zone now with a longer engine. Competitor boot volume comparisons? Passenger headroom is still a space concern. If you raise the floor for a tunnel you have a compromise on the seat height.

Anyway were going a bit of tangent here with why the platform is FWD. Its a shame BMW are now out really.

 

[Dogbreath]

The point is still; how can a professional racing series be justified when the less-professional stuff offers faster and more powerful cars.

So you put speed and power above all else as factors that make a good race series? Close racing just doesn't do it for you? Never watched e.g. any of the Caterham race series?

That PS3 is calling you.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

So you put speed and power above all else as factors that make a good race series? Close racing just doesn't do it for you? Never watched e.g. any of the Caterham race series?

Are they in Gran Tourismo?

Mind you thats Prologue only at the moments, seems we have had Gran Tourismo Monologue in here today.

 

[rypt]

You are sacrificing quite a lot to have equal drive shafts ... look at the engine location required for the Issigonis style layout to get equal drive shafts - the engine is is mounted a fraction in front of the wheels.

Ideally you want the engine right over the front wheels or a bit behind them.

 

[rypt]

Just to get this straight.

Nitrous is a load of ****. You can easilly build a car fast enough and not use something that will last maybe 30 seconds if you have the budget for it.

Im glad that motorsport(Big ones) dont allow the crap.

Yes you can build a car that is fast enough without Nitrous; but why not use a fuel additive if you can?
Plenty of race series not use ethanol/methanol based fuel as well.

 

[rypt]

What about the bulhead behing pushed back at the front thanks amongst other things the 500mm NCAP squsih zone now with a longer engine.

Passenger headroom is still a space concern. If you raise the floor for a tunnel you have a compromise on the seat height.

If V4 were brought back they would work in an FR setup without adding much (if any) extra length to the car. Or if you were to use boxer engines.


You do not have to raise the whole floor for the tunnel .. it is a TUNNEL afterall and runs really only though the middle.

 

[Zip]

Yes you can build a car that is fast enough without Nitrous; but why not use a fuel additive if you can?
Plenty of race series not use ethanol/methanol based fuel as well.

Those fuels will last an entire race. Not a minute at the most.

IIRC using Nitrous feels like a turbo spooling up from what ive read on here. Might aswell just stick with a turbo as its probably safer, cheaper in the long run and always there.

 

[rypt]

Those fuels will last an entire race. Not a minute at the most.

IIRC using Nitrous feels like a turbo spooling up from what ive read on here. Might aswell just stick with a turbo as its probably safer, cheaper in the long run and always there.

How exactly does nitrous last a minute?

 

[Zip]

How exactly does nitrous last a minute?

WEll since its little bottles of the stuff and you hit a button a few times and it all goes then thats it. Probably wouldnt last to long.


The push to pass idea that CART had/have is a better idea then Nitrous with the exact same effect.

Whats all your hype about it anyway? Its not really like the fast and the furious you know

 

[Jonnycoupe]

You are sacrificing quite a lot to have equal drive shafts ... look at the engine location required for the Issigonis style layout to get equal drive shafts - the engine is is mounted a fraction in front of the wheels.

The 1988 Honda CRX has equal length shafts. Why are you refering to the carline X axis? What part of the engine is mounted 'a fraction' in front. Most FWD cars have the crankline infront of the wheels and hence the diff.

You sacrifice very little and gain a lot back including a little space behind block space as you have a fixed driveshaft.

Why would OEM cars bring in a V4

 

[rypt]

WEll since its little bottles of the stuff and you hit a button a few times and it all goes then thats it. Probably wouldnt last to long.


The push to pass idea that CART had/have is a better idea then Nitrous with the exact same effect.

Whats all your hype about it anyway? Its not really like the fast and the furious you know

Sigh, I really cba to explain ...

The 1988 Honda CRX has equal length shafts.

You sacrifice very little and gain a lot back including a little space behind block space as you have a fixed driveshaft.

Why would OEM cars bring in a V4

Because a V4 or an H4 offers smaller packaging for a low power FR setup than an I4 (being about half the length of an I4, but much wider).
Since the trend recently has been to make cars a bit wider than before; fitting in the V4 or H4 is not an issue.
An H4 also offers a lower COG.

You do not need lots of space behind the block; what you need is have the engine weight be over or behind the front wheels.

 

[Zip]

Sigh, I really cba to explain ...

Dont be lazy!

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Sigh, I really cba to explain ...



Because a V4 or an H4 offers smaller packaging for a low power FR setup than an I4 (being about half the length of an I4, but much wider).
Since the trend recently has been to make cars a bit wider than before; fitting in the V4 or H4 is not an issue.
An H4 also offers a lower COG..

And again why would OEMs want the extra part count and NVH compromises just for a race series on cars they have to sell to a consumer?

Im starting to miss whats going on here. Sounds like you need to take my job and I go back to uni though.

 

[Zip]

What is your job BTW jonny?

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Vehicle Package Engineer at JLR. Hybrid Package at the moment.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

You are sacrificing quite a lot to have equal drive shafts ... look at the engine location required for the Issigonis style layout to get equal drive shafts - the engine is is mounted a fraction in front of the wheels.

Yes look how difficult it isnt.

 

[rypt]

That would still not completely eliminate torque steer; the extended shaft before the U-joint will still rotate a bit when torque is applied to it at first (shear strain) - this will mean that the U joint either side of the car are not at the same angle; and since their travel is not circular they will have different paths of travel (a slight phase lag) and so the motion up/down will be different.

So now you are forcing the suspension to react a force - which means depending on ARB settings you might get some toe in/out or a loss of a smooth ride (or just 3 wheels on the ground - so now you are compromising acceleration while cornering).

Which is why an FR setup is so much easier to design...

 

[Fr0dders]

Roger Clark with BTCC rules would be no where near the factory cars. No where near.

good

the manufacturers arent involved in BTCC anymore. Its solely about what the drivers enjoy driving and what we enjoy watching.

so long as its not mega expensive, nobody cares anymore about relevancy to production models.

Hell you could either knock up a space frame chassis effort with a glass fibre body ala nascar.

Its all about what the teams can build themselves to entertain us now. Factory cars no longer have any relevancy.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

That would still not completely eliminate torque steer; the extended shaft before the U-joint will still rotate a bit when torque is applied to it at first (shear strain) - this will mean that the U joint either side of the car are not at the same angle; and since their travel is not circular they will have different paths of travel (a slight phase lag) and so the motion up/down will be different.

Which is why an FR setup is so much easier to design...

U joint????

Birfield Outer and Spider tripod inner CV Im afraid. With a fixed bearing each side is the same.

Shear strain? I think the word you want is torque. There is no reason for the any angle to change where the elastic response of a driveshaft is a concern over bush compliance.

We didnt say FWD was easier to design did we? We started with the interior package problems with RWD. You seem to have moved the goalposts.

Now maybe you could talk about the rear diff on a RWD platform and how the torque reaction rotating the diff housing actually means RWD driveshaft have different angles unlike a FWD transverse arrangement. Put your bleeding textbook down

 

[rypt]

And again why would OEMs want the extra part count and NVH compromises just for a race series on cars they have to sell to a consumer?

An H4 adds no NVH issues as it is a naturally balanced engine.

WEll since its little bottles of the stuff and you hit a button a few times and it all goes then thats it. Probably wouldnt last to long.


The push to pass idea that CART had/have is a better idea then Nitrous with the exact same effect.

Whats all your hype about it anyway? Its not really like the fast and the furious you know

Nitrous systems do not need a button; the injectors can be controlled by the ECU so that the liquid is automatically injected depending on RPM and throttle position - so in that way they are like a fully tunable turbo - however you can change how much you inject to make it behave more like a centrifugal supercharger by increasing the power with RPM.

The amount of time it will last is no different to how long your tank of fuel lasts; if you need to have it last longer you have a larger tank...

Nitrous has other effects on the engine performance beyond simply giving up oxygen for combustion; it causes the air intake temperature to fall thus increasing the air density thus allowing you to have more air go into the engine per unit time - so you can add more fuel and make even more power.