Istanbul - TURKEY Grand Prix 2009 - Race 7/17

I'm just not sure I agree with what he is saying about not favouring one driver. I'm still not convinced that 3 stopper they put rubens on was the way to go. I read an article where other team strategists said that the 3 stopper would only work in a completely perfect world with no traffic.

I think Ross started the season with a completely open mind but has seen whose his number 1 is very quickly. I reckon he half expected rubens to be leading the challenge and has been blown away with how Jenson has carried and worked on that car during the weekends.
 
indeed

his turnaround in pace from friday to race day is as largely down to him. His race engineers can do as he asks, but if he isnt able to communicate exactly wahts wrong with the car, and what it needs. then they wont be able to do it.


I think button is one of the those drivers thats always shown talent, but never delivered as hes the sort that is easily frustrated. Now hes finally got a good car, hes shown everybody else a clean pair of heels and is driving off into the sunset with his name already on the trophy.

And its not totally down to the car, rubens has only managed 2nd in 3 of the races and hasnt managed 1st in any. And this was long before any 1st or 2nd driver strategy was formulated.
 
MrLOL said:
And its not totally down to the car, rubens has only managed 2nd in 3 of the races and hasnt managed 1st in any. And this was long before any 1st or 2nd driver strategy was formulated.
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If you look at Barrichello's flat speed, this hasnt been bad and has been pretty even with Button (though Button always seems to have the edge). The problem with Barrichello is that he always seems to have some sort of incident, a lot of which are down to his own making. In particular - his aggressive overtaking moves which a lot of the time result in contact with another car.

Button on the other hand (though only marginally quicker), is staying out of trouble and is putting his fast laps, at the right time. The car is suiting him this year and he is on a roll, where everything is working for him. On dry tracks, I honestly can't see him getting genuinely beaten, unless another team makes considerable progress (which may or may not happen). The WDC though, is a forgone conclusion.

Vettel and RedBull had their win come in a wet race. Vettel's other win also came on a damp/soggy track. The pattern is there that if it rains, Vettel's chances of a winning increase, while Button's chances decrease.
 
dannyjo22 said:
I'm just not sure I agree with what he is saying about not favouring one driver. I'm still not convinced that 3 stopper they put rubens on was the way to go. I read an article where other team strategists said that the 3 stopper would only work in a completely perfect world with no traffic.

I think Ross started the season with a completely open mind but has seen whose his number 1 is very quickly. I reckon he half expected rubens to be leading the challenge and has been blown away with how Jenson has carried and worked on that car during the weekends.
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Rubens was also due to stop twice - I think it was self inflicted damage to the wing that might have forced the 3rd stop

Vettel had a three stopper - and I would agree I think that was definitely a bad call - the 1st stop was far too short, it would have been interesting had he tried a stop for 25 laps of fuel or something at 1st stop and then a quick splash and dash for around 16 or so at the end on the non-prime (if they where so convinced a 2 stopper woudlnt have worked)

sunama said:
Button on the other hand (though only marginally quicker), is staying out of trouble and is putting his fast laps, at the right time. The car is suiting him this year and he is on a roll, where everything is working for him. On dry tracks, I honestly can't see him getting genuinely beaten, unless another team makes considerable progress (which may or may not happen). The WDC though, is a forgone conclusion.
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Nothing that marginal about it - even when they do have a 1- 2 , they are usually 20 - 30 seconds apart before Button starts to slow down to conserve the engine and gearbox. You also need to consider that Button has never needed to push for the whole race distance - quite often in the middle of the race he will just start doing absolute blinders just to prove he can do them and will then back off again because no-one is really threatening.


From the BBC:

Button tends to have a narrow 'band width' in terms of car behaviour - he needs it to have lots of rear end stability, particularly under braking, to allow him to maximise his high momentum entry to a corner.

His beautifully silky style allows him to squeeze the absolute maximum braking and lateral grip from a progressive handling and grippy car.

It's an advantage that is magnified in the wet. But should the handling become twitchy or inconsistent, such a style can be much less effective than Barrichello's more improvisational approach.

Button has suffered in the past from team technical personnel not realising the full significance of his specific demands of a car, specifically in 2001 when he did not compare well in the uncompetitive Benetton to team-mate Giancarlo Fisichella.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8090677.stm


No way Ross is favouring one driver at all - Button is just outclassing Rubens at the moment, may all change in the coming races but I hope not
 
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dannyjo22 said:
Your just bitter because you was his biggest critic and you have been blown apart. The last shred you can cling to is how Button must win now, in the hope it doesn't happen so you have something else to cling to.
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I'm not bitter at all. I'm certainly dissapointed that Hamilton hasnt been given a car to defend the title with, but if he loses it, I would much rather the WDC goto another Briton.

Furthermore, after the first race onwards, I have been saying that Button is doing a great job at BrawnGP. Period. There is no bitterness and havent said anything bad about him this season, once he started producing the goods.

I'm not sure where you are getting the "bitterness" from.

dannyjo22 said:
Not that Button will care, if he was offered a title in 09 and then never finish a race again let alone win one I'm sure he would take it. Not only that he would have done it from a far worse team and starting point than any champion in recent memory.
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You still can't get away from the fact that the BrawnGP car is the best car on the grid, by a country mile. Usually the best car will win the titles, however, driver line-ups can change this. Both BrawnGP drivers are 1-2 in the title race, which shows that the team and car are the best overall.
 
sunama said:
Vettel and RedBull had their win come in a wet race. Vettel's other win also came on a damp/soggy track. The pattern is there that if it rains, Vettel's chances of a winning increase, while Button's chances decrease.
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Vettel is no better than JB in the wet. The difference being if silverstone is wet Red Bull may well take a more risky set up in the wet where as JB as championship leader will play the percentages.

JB has never had more issues than anyone else in the wet.
 
sunama said:
You still can't get away from the fact that the BrawnGP car is the best car on the grid, by a country mile.
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It may be that your assessment is something of an exaggeration, but you do wonder just how gutted the decision-makers and abacists at Honda must feel this year ;)

So far as I can understand it, the basis of Brawn GP's success this year is that they gave up trying to compete early last season and concentrated on developing a car that would push the envelope of this year's rules; it will be interesting to see whether any other team (e.g. McLaren) will do the same this year when the rules are finally agreed - if they ever are. Why waste money and development resources when you don't have a hope of turning the situation around?
 
stockhausen said:
...but you do wonder just how gutted the decision-makers and abacists at Honda must feel this year ;)
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I too, would love to know how the Honda top dogs feel about this? Its almost as if they worked hard for many years to reach the top. And at the very point they were about to reach the top, they left. It must be frustrating to see BrawnGP's success.

With regard to me exaggerating BrawnGP's dominance - they have won 6 out of 7 GPs. The 1 race they lost was on a wet track; if it was dry, Button would've won that as well. If that isnt near total dominance I dont know what is.

dannyjo22 said:
Vettel is no better than JB in the wet. The difference being if silverstone is wet Red Bull may well take a more risky set up in the wet where as JB as championship leader will play the percentages.

JB has never had more issues than anyone else in the wet.
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Whether it was the setup or whether it was the car, the fact remains that the last wet race we had, was won by Vettel/RedBull in a situation where Button commented that there was no way that he could've got close to the speed of the RedBull cars ahead of him, which seemed to have great traction on the (wet) track. Both RedBull cars finished comfortably ahead of Button, where on a dry track, this simply hasnt happened yet.
 
sunama said:
I too, would love to know how the Honda top dogs feel about this? Its almost as if they worked hard for many years to reach the top. And at the very point they were about to reach the top, they left. It must be frustrating to see BrawnGP's success.
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Whilst they probably are kicking themselves would Brawn be in the same position if Honda hadn't ducked out? Surely a piece of the Brawns very good package is the Mercades engine?

I don't believe they'd be having the same dominance if they had stuck with Honda.
 
I'm a bit luke warm about the Mercedes engine...is it really that good?

My feeling is that what is giving BrawnGP their advantage is their aero package and not the power delivery. My understanding is that in 2009, most engines are very close to one another.

Also, dont forget that the BrawnGP car was designed for the Honda engine, from the outset. When Honda pulled out, a deal was struck with Mercedes, at which point BrawnGP would've got the specs of that engine and began making changes (retrofitting, as it were), to allow the car to accept the new engine. Also, the Mercedes engine was built from the ground up to work with KERS. The Honda engine, might not have been so powerful, but wouldve been designed from the ground up to work in the BrawnGP chassis.

I guess we shall never find out.
 
sunama said:
My feeling is that what is giving BrawnGP their advantage is their aero package and not the power delivery. My understanding is that in 2009, most engines are very close to one another.
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It's the whole package not just aero. Look at where their brake callipers are, or how they have their steering rack. the Mercedes engine is very reliable and must be one of the most powerful.
 
AcidHell2 said:
It's the whole package not just aero. Look at where their brake callipers are, or how they have their steering rack. the Mercedes engine is very reliable and must be one of the most powerful.
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That was my point. :) It's not the deciding factor, but definitely a contributing one.

And surely it's considerably better than the Honda offering?
 
sunama said:
I'm a bit luke warm about the Mercedes engine...is it really that good?

My feeling is that what is giving BrawnGP their advantage is their aero package and not the power delivery. My understanding is that in 2009, most engines are very close to one another.

Also, dont forget that the BrawnGP car was designed for the Honda engine, from the outset. When Honda pulled out, a deal was struck with Mercedes, at which point BrawnGP would've got the specs of that engine and began making changes (retrofitting, as it were), to allow the car to accept the new engine. Also, the Mercedes engine was built from the ground up to work with KERS. The Honda engine, might not have been so powerful, but wouldve been designed from the ground up to work in the BrawnGP chassis.

I guess we shall never find out.
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The honda engine was rumoured to be 50bhp down on the current mercedes engine due in part to the engine freeze and honda not having the reliability to keep the power up when the multi race engine ruling came about.

The Brawn team and drivers have already commented on not just the power increase but how progressive the engine is in comparison to the Honda which they said was in effect all or nothing.

The Mercedes retrofit was easy enough because they brought in gascoyne who was already did the same job for force india for a while. He worked on the tie up and then left Brawn.
 
orderoftheflame said:
And surely it's considerably better than the Honda offering?
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AcidHell2 said:
I would have thought so, just tried a google. but can't see any figures.
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The figure I saw bandied about at the start of the season was that the Merc lump was up to 80bhp more powerful than the Honda from last season (probably because they played a bit fast and loose with the engine freeze by putting through "reliability" updates that also increased performance).
 
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