The all encompassing BNP thread - keep all crap in here.

vee70 · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:11

Dolph said:
Some people did welcome the Romans into the UK, indeed the first relationships, although the Romans may have desired invasion, were decidedly diplomatic.

Hehehe. Faced with the most advanced military machine of its time the British people decided diplomacy was better than certain death. [/quote]

Dolph said:
I suppose you could argue that circumstances were somewhat similar, in that the people had little say while the rulers welcomed and encouraged the association.

I don't think the rulers welcomed the roman invasion or the intial contact much. The initial contact resulted in a King being "installed" and his rival being "brought to terms". I doubt the rival welcomed the romans even if the installed king did.

Dolph said:
My point was that 'British' culture (which really is a misnomer, as there is no homogenous British or even English culture that can be taken in historical context like this) isn't something that is easily identified, and can be shown as something that 'X' is a threat to.

I doubt any "culture" can be easily defined. If it can please demonstrate. Certainly this island has had 1000 years to become its own entity and it is clearly not the same culture as many of the people who choose to settle here.

Dolph said:
Society has changed massively in the last 60-70 years, and it would have done if immigration had been zero, due to social and economic shifts on a massive scale. If we are so intent on preserving tradition 'british' culture, then we have far more to worry about than a few immigrants.

Again the term "a few" immigrants is massively misleading. The culture has evolved at its own pace, forced and massive immigration brings a very different evolution with it. If 80% of the native population are unhappy with the levels of immigration then clearly immigration is not "working" in the eyes of the vast majority.

vee70 · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:13

Evangelion said:
Then please do so. Define your position precisely.

My position? I'm sat on my sofa. In the middle of it, slightly, very, very slightly to the right of the middle of the sofa. Is that precise enough for you?

mr tommo · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:17

^ I LOL'd

vee70 · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:22

Spawn said:
Ok perhaps you havent expressed any views but id like to see some of your views unless you like sitting on the fence...

I'm undecided on most things, there are pros and cons to most things. The more complex the issue the less simple it is to fall onto one side. That is what amazes me, that so many people here can make blanket statements such as "immigration is good, cultural diversity is good, multiculturalism is good, and anyone who disagrees with any aspect of that is a nazi thug and thick too". When probed for explanations and reasons for holding particular views they are unable to offer solid explanations and immediately resort to insults and accusations - that they again fail to show evidence for.

I do not believe immigration is all good. I think some is necessary and much is a net disadvantage to the UK. However some is extremely good.

I do not believe that the "cultural benefits" as expressed by people here are genuine. I have seen a lot of guff about art and music but no-one seems able to genuinely tell me that they regularly go to watch or listen to things that are outside of their normal culture. I think it is just a soundbyte repeated until it becomes subconsciously believed by the masses who on the whole don't get any more multicultural than having a beer with a lapsed muslim in the local and eating a kebab afterwards. I think that the disadvantages of massive immigration are underplayed and no wonder. Anyone who dares to even question the accepted politically correct "truth" is immediately made into a pariah and accused of all manner of things, things that are untrue and for which the accusers can't be bothered to try to justify because they are so wrapped up in their own personal sense of injustice that their PC brainwashing was challenged.

If you want to hear more specific personal opinions then you'll need to ask more specific questions but so few things are as black and white to me as they appear to be to so many posters in this thread.

Dolph · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:29

vee70 said:
Hehehe. Faced with the most advanced military machine of its time the British people decided diplomacy was better than certain death.

I don't think the rulers welcomed the roman invasion or the intial contact much. The initial contact resulted in a King being "installed" and his rival being "brought to terms". I doubt the rival welcomed the romans even if the installed king did.
I doubt any "culture" can be easily defined. If it can please demonstrate. Certainly this island has had 1000 years to become its own entity and it is clearly not the same culture as many of the people who choose to settle here.
Again the term "a few" immigrants is massively misleading. The culture has evolved at its own pace, forced and massive immigration brings a very different evolution with it. If 80% of the native population are unhappy with the levels of immigration then clearly immigration is not "working" in the eyes of the vast majority.

For about the fourth time, I'm not pro-immigration. However, the cultural shifts in the uk since WW2 that have not been driven by immigration dwarf those that have been (The most obvious being the creation of the NHS and the social protection system, the sexual revolution of the 60s, the shift from a manufacturing and agricultural economy to a services driven one, the legalisation of homosexuality in 1967, and so on)

I'm yet to be convinced that immigration is having a significant effect in altering our culture in any meaningful manner, certainly not when compared with the natural changes that occur as society progresses.

I'm not a fan of societies or communities that shutter themselves off, but that problem is not an exclusively immigrant one, there are natives and native areas that do just the same.

dirtydog · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:31

Dolph said:
I'm yet to be convinced that immigration is having a significant effect in altering our culture in any meaningful manner

Maybe you lead a sheltered life down there in Devon, I don't know. But immigration is bringing significant and rapid changes to our country, even if it isn't happening where you live.

rypt · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:32

dirtydog said:
Maybe you lead a sheltered life down there in Devon, I don't know. But immigration is bringing significant and rapid changes to our country, even if it isn't happening where you live.

Give us an example if you are going to make such a claim..

Sankari · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:32

vee70 said:
My position? I'm sat on my sofa. In the middle of it, slightly, very, very slightly to the right of the middle of the sofa. Is that precise enough for you?

No, it's just a pathetic attempt to dodge the question.

Answer the question.

Spektor · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:32

dirtydog said:
Maybe you lead a sheltered life down there in Devon, I don't know. But immigration is bringing significant and rapid changes to our country, even if it isn't happening where you live.

List the changes and their effects plix.

dirtydog · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:35

rypt said:
Give us an example if you are going to make such a claim..

Anyone over the age of 30 who has stepped foot outside should know that.

Doohickey · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:37

vee70 said:
My position? I'm sat on my sofa. In the middle of it, slightly, very, very slightly to the right of the middle of the sofa. Is that precise enough for you?

Honestly, what is your problem with answering questions? You either answer questions with questions or give a prickish response as demonstrated in my quote above.

rypt · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:37

dirtydog said:
Anyone over the age of 30 who has stepped foot outside should know that.

Which basically means you have nothing you can list as most changes that have occurred are as a result of natural change rather than brought on by society.

The fact that we have large areas of immigrants all living together in a community is (and not integrating) is NOT a change to society btw.

Dolph · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:38

dirtydog said:
Maybe you lead a sheltered life down there in Devon, I don't know. But immigration is bringing significant and rapid changes to our country, even if it isn't happening where you live.

Talk about a selective quote....

The full sentance was:

I'm yet to be convinced that immigration is having a significant effect in altering our culture in any meaningful manner, certainly not when compared with the natural changes that occur as society progresses.

In other words, I'm yet to see any changes that are as significant as the natural (and unnatural but non-immigrant driven) societal changes. I have not said there are no changes.

I get to interact with foreign staff and customers on a regular basis down here in 'sheltered' Devon, perhaps the real problem is that multiculturalism down here is working fine, we all share our experiences and expand our horizons without making unnecessary demands on people. Sorry if that disappoints.

vee70 · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:43

Dolph said:
For about the fourth time, I'm not pro-immigration.

Did I suggest you are?

Dolph said:
However, the cultural shifts in the uk since WW2 that have not been driven by immigration dwarf those that have been (The most obvious being the creation of the NHS and the social protection system, the sexual revolution of the 60s, the shift from a manufacturing and agricultural economy to a services driven one, the legalisation of homosexuality in 1967, and so on)

The size of the cultural shift that immigration will cause will be largely dependent upon the scale of immigration. The division of towns and cities since mass immigration is to many people a large and noticeable cultural shift. More importantly to many it is a forced change and not an evolutionary one. It may well result in large scenes of social unrest, violence, riots and so on. You may well be correct and immigration may be having little cultural impact but it is certainly percieved as having impact on housing, health, education and our towns and cities.

Dolph said:
I'm yet to be convinced that immigration is having a significant effect in altering our culture in any meaningful manner, certainly not when compared with the natural changes that occur as society progresses.

You may well be right.

Dolph said:
I'm not a fan of societies or communities that shutter themselves off, but that problem is not an exclusively immigrant one, there are natives and native areas that do just the same.

Regardless of what the natives do it doesn't excuse immigrants from doing the same nor does it sit well with many natives.

vee70 · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:44

Evangelion said:
No, it's just a pathetic attempt to dodge the question.

Answer the question.

The question is so broad and encompassing that it is virtually impossible to answer. Why don't you try and answer it yourself......

Incidentally I'm unlikely to respond to "demands" from you. "ANSWER THE QUESTIONZZZZZZZ". Think of a short pithy sexual retort and consider it headed your way.

vee70 · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:48

Doohickey said:
Honestly, what is your problem with answering questions? You either answer questions with questions or give a prickish response as demonstrated in my quote above.

I don't have a problem answering questions, they just need to be less vague.
Why don't you answer the question yourself, see how easy it is.
Oh thanks for demonstrating what a "prickish response" is by the way

Ross1234 · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:48

No one will take your "argument" seriously if you dont answer questions directed at you. No need to have a tantrum.

Dolph · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:50

vee70 said:
Did I suggest you are? The size of the cultural shift that immigration will cause will be largely dependent upon the scale of immigration. The division of towns and cities since mass immigration is to many people a large and noticeable cultural shift. More importantly to many it is a forced change and not an evolutionary one. It may well result in large scenes of social unrest, violence, riots and so on. You may well be correct and immigration may be having little cultural impact but it is certainly percieved as having impact on housing, health, education and our towns and cities.

Mass immigration has not really caused division in our towns and cities, unless you think we didn't have bad areas and class/economic divisions in our towns prior to the arrival of the immigrants. All that's happened in most cases is that you now have poor areas full of immigrants rather than poor areas full of white working class and benefit class people.

There are concerns regarding some of the impact that have on housing, healthcare etc, but that's why I support a net positive economic benefit approach, that would cover those aspects.

You may well be right.
Regardless of what the natives do it doesn't excuse immigrants from doing the same nor does it sit well with many natives.

Unfortunately double standards are never a good policy design tool.

vee70 · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:50

rypt said:
The fact that we have large areas of immigrants all living together in a community is (and not integrating) is NOT a change to society btw.

The immigrants are part of society. They weren't here before they immigrated. Therefore they are part of a change to society. :confused:

rypt · 12 Jun 2009 at 19:51

vee70 said:
The immigrants are part of society. They weren't here before they immigrated. Therefore they are part of a change to society.

No they are about as much part of society as my privates are part of my brain.
They just happen to be there but have no relation to society.

Being a part of society means being integrated into it; rather than just existing somewhere.