BT to offer faster speeds

[GregI]

LMFAO at BT. A live help window popped up while i was surfing there packages. Snippets -

Jackie: Greg you do know that you can order with me now and get set up in time for your contract end with AOL right?
Jackie: Would you like to?
Greg: I don't know. I would like to but i am undecided between your service and the service of 02 broadband.
Jackie: O2’s service lacks the completeness of BT Total broadband. For example, it does not offer the following: file back up, home installation, home support, calls over the internet, a portal via BT Yahoo!, access to a global WiFi network (BT FON), etc.
Greg: lolwut

-------------------

Jackie: Greg did you know that.
Jackie: You can order now with me option 3 and then request your mac code from AOL, thus saving you time?
Jackie: Would you like the link to order option 3 on a provisional basis and then request your MAC code from aol?
Greg: nah it's okay. i need to ask my brother what he wants to do first.
Jackie: Greg remember its a set up order.
Jackie: How this works is once you have placed your order online, I will send you the information on how to get your MAC Code. Then a BT advisor will contact you within 72 hours to see if you have received your MAC Code yet.
Jackie: Is this okay? Come on Greg shall we order it now together, whilst you order, can you ask your brother?
Greg: jeesh, abit pushy arent ya?

 

[SkeeterUK]

lol

 

[BoomAM]

It does offer future capacity; what do you think all the FTTH/FTTC stuff will connect to?

Ive read the stuff about the 'core network' and compared to countries like Japan its laughable quite frankly.
The fact they are lauding it as the next greatest thing over here when even when its completed its decades behind other countries were years ago is mental!

On the consumer side they see 24Mbps as a selling point, which is just plain daft.

 

[tolien]

What? It's got nothing to do with 24Mbps, ADSL2+ or any of the other facets of the access network you seem to have fixated on, and it certainly is a big deal compared to continuing to use ATM - BT expect to save a billion pounds a year from it.

Comparison to Japan is pointless considering their pitiful peering to the outside world. Do feel free to demonstrate how their network makes 21CN "laughable" at the core though.

 

[scoobyrichuk]

Ive read the stuff about the 'core network' and compared to countries like Japan its laughable quite frankly.
The fact they are lauding it as the next greatest thing over here when even when its completed its decades behind other countries were years ago is mental!

On the consumer side they see 24Mbps as a selling point, which is just plain daft.

It's not 'decades behind other countries'. 21CN is mainly about saving BT money by converging all of the services we currently offer into one easy to maintain system i.e. it's mainly for the benefit of BT employees who's working lives will become easier once it's been implemented nationwide and in turn this will cause efficiency savings for BT (upto £1 billion a year.) We are behind other countries in terms of having a fibre access network but this is starting to change now, what do you think the FTTC program is about???? As for other countries having much better broadband I think you'll find it's only heavily urbanised areas in countries such as Japan, South Korea etc that have access to super fast broadband - Virgin Media already offers fibre connections in over 40% of the country (i.e. the most populated, urban areas) so we're not as far behind as you seem to be making out...

 

[BoomAM]

Virgin Media already offers fibre connections in over 40% of the country (i.e. the most populated, urban areas) so we're not as far behind as you seem to be making out...

Thats the point though.
Its all very well replacing all these bits of the core network, meshing, converging, ect; for cost savings sake.
But argue all you want, but ive seen a fair articles where BT seem chuffed that their aiming for 24Mbps in each home potentially. Its a well done, yeah, most of the country is 2Mbps, but as you say, other companies are offering double that already in this country. So why are they so chuffed?

Surely for future proofs sake it'd make more sence for BT to just goto fibre to every cab?
Short term costs, long term savings, lots of potential bandwidth depending on the type of fibre and cores used too!

Japan arnt the only country who are ahead of us, and urban areas or not the standard of internet even in 'non-urban' areas in a lot of European countrys is still better than what we have here!
Just seems silly to me that they are going through this entire cost saving exercise, replacing this that and the other, and yet it doesnt seem to offer any tangiable benefits beyond what is offered at the moment. Including 'future proofness'.

If they want to save costs, fine, but doing it like this will cost more. X amount of years down the line they are gonna have to redo again because of what they havnt done now.
Might as well knock it all out in one go now.

 

[tolien]

Fibre to the cab without investing in the core network would be pointless. You'd wind up with a congested core network and it would all come falling down. Remember it's not just consumer data traffic being transported here, you could wind up breaking the voice network too...

ADSL2+ in a lot of cases could have been done with a configuration change years ago; at worst some exchanges needed replacement DSLAMs. The back-patting is primarily a PR side-show, the same as VM with 50Mbps. The important part is the core network and the work that's already going on with an FTTC rollout.

 

[BoomAM]

Fibre to the cab without investing in the core network would be pointless. You'd wind up with a congested core network and it would all come falling down. Remember it's not just consumer data traffic being transported here, you could wind up breaking the voice network too...

Who said anything about not doing the core network too? I dont recall saying it....
My point is if they are doing the core for whatever reason, do the edge as well.

ADSL2+ in a lot of cases could have been done with a configuration change years ago; at worst some exchanges needed replacement DSLAMs. The back-patting is primarily PR, the same as VM with 50Mbps.

DSLs biggest problem is distance.
Fibre to the cabs goes a significant way to resolving that, and gives a lot more flexability now and in the future.

 

[tolien]

Who said anything about not doing the core network too? I dont recall saying it....
My point is if they are doing the core for whatever reason, do the edge as well.

That's a fantasy, or did you not notice the recession that's going on?
21CN cost ~£10 billion, an FTTH rollout would cost another estimated £29 billion. On what planet is any company supposed to find that sort of investment (without it coming from the government and enlarging the significant debt they're digging into)?

DSLs biggest problem is distance.
Fibre to the cabs goes a significant distance to resolving that, and gives a lot more flexability.

Who said that wasn't the case?
In case you've missed it, there's already an FTTC uplift going on that'll connect 10 million premises by 2012, 15000 of them by this summer.

 

[BoomAM]

That's a fantasy, or did you not notice the recession that's going on?
21CN cost ~£10 billion, an FTTH rollout would cost another estimated £29 billion. On what planet is any company supposed to find that sort of investment?

Compared to doing the same a few years down the line it would probably work out cheaper to do now.
You have to look at the long term picture here. With that sort of roll out potentially benefitting the entire population, im sure the goverment or local councils would provide investment to a degree.

Who said that wasn't the case? In case you've missed it, there's already an FTTC uplift going on that'll connect 10 million premises by 2012.

10 million premises.
And how many millions of that are inner city ones?
As per usual, smaller cities, towns and villages are being ignored.

 

[tolien]

Compared to doing the same a few years down the line it would probably work out cheaper to do now.

Maybe so, but if the capital investment is crippling it's not an option.

You have to look at the long term picture here.

The same long term picture you seem to have missed in saying 21CN is "laughable".

With that sort of roll out potentially benefitting the entire population, im sure the goverment or local councils would provide investment to a degree.

Not the whole population, but that aside the money would have to come from somewhere. If £30 a month is extortionate for an ADSL service how many would stump up, say, £1000 for an FTTH service that was 100Mbps both ways?

10 million premises.
And how many millions of that are inner city ones?
As per usual, smaller cities, towns and villages are being ignored.

As per usual, the ones that provide the best chance of recouping the investment, surprise...

 

[BoomAM]

Maybe so, but if the capital investment is crippling it's not an option.

As said, LEAs at the very least would invest.

The same long term picture you seem to have missed in saying 21CN is "laughable".

If you can provide evidence i will be more than willing to conceed that im wrong. But im yet to see evidence from you or otherwise that its not a waste at the moment.
So im sticking to my opinion quite frankly.

Not the whole population, but that aside the money would have to come from somewhere. If £30 is extortionate for an ADSL service how many would stump up, say, £100 for an FTTH service that was 100Mbps both ways?

Youve missed the point there.
Local LEAs and the goverment would possibly provide investment. Not the consumer.

As per usual, the ones that provide the best chance of recouping the investment, surprise...

Im sure if the goverment or OFCOM put their boot in, in one way or another, then the investment required for the rural areas would drop quite dramatically.

 

[tolien]

If you can provide evidence i will be more than willing to conceed that im wrong. But im yet to see evidence from you or otherwise that its not a waste at the moment.
So im sticking to my opinion quite frankly.

Provide evidence for what? That 21CN represents cost savings? That 21CN is "not a waste"? That there is an FTTC programme already going on?

Google has no end of presentations from BT and others, showing the savings they're expecting to make from 21CN and similar NGNs; other telcos abroad have shown cost savings from building similar networks; the LLUs generally use IP rather than ATM.

As said, LEAs at the very least would invest.

Like they have, or are, or have even offered to?

Youve missed the point there.
Local LEAs and the goverment would possibly provide investment. Not the consumer.

Ah yes, the government and LEAs get their money from...? If, as Ofcom showed, 70% of the population use broadband, you're talking £1000 per head of broadband-using population to pay for 21CN and an FTTH rollout, with ~90% coverage.
There would also be legal implications, like the EC State Aid legislation that AFAIK hasn't even been resolved with the £6 p.a. internet tax.

You didn't answer my original question either. Where have, for example, Japan Telecom built their access networks without a similar upgrade or replacement of the core?

 

[BoomAM]

Provide evidence for what? That 21CN represents cost savings? That 21CN is "not a waste"? That there is an FTTC programme already going on?

Google has no end of presentations from BT and others, showing the savings they're expecting to make from 21CN; other telcos abroad have shown cost savings from building similar networks; the LLUs generally use IP rather than ATM.

Evidence of it not being a waste yes.
"Upgrade now to save costs, then again to do what we should have done last time around in 5-10 years time".
Thats what it comes down to in my books. A half arsed job. If your gonna do something, do it right imo.

Like they have, or are, or have even offered to?

I am aware of several LEAs who are in talks to with BT about fibre.
Google would probably bring these up for you.

Ah yes, the government and LEAs get their money from...?
There would also be legal implications, like the EC State Aid legislation that AFAIK hasn't even been resolved with the £6 p.a. internet tax.

Who said it has to be done on a tax basis?
They can simple allocate budgets to the 'project' from slicing off the top of others. The money would quickly add up wouldnt it!?

You didn't answer my original question either. Where have, for example, Japan Telecom built their access networks without a similar upgrade or replacement of the core?

Thats because it wasnt a question, it was an offer.
An offer/attempt on your part for me to provide information that very few on the planet could provide. An attempt to 'show me up' as it were.

Also one that misses the point of what i was saying, as you seem to be beliving that i was concentrating on the edge only. When ive said the core as well, multiple times.

 

[tolien]

Evidence of it not being a waste yes.

http://globalservices.bt.com/LeafAc...nhanced_Platform_Services_solutions_all_en-gb

* The end result of our 21CN programme will see significant annual cost savings and help to reduce product introduction lead times from 18 months to six

http://www.btplc.com/21CN/BTcustomers/Residentialcustomer/FAQs/Network.htm

BT aims to deliver £1 billion of cash savings every year and we expect to achieve this level of cost reduction from the financial year 2008/9.

a set of networks that have been built up over decades, with different layers added for new devices, applications and technologies that have emerged along the way. This means that high levels of manual integration are needed to help them interact.

"Upgrade now to save costs, then again to do what we should have done last time around in 5-10 years time".
Thats what it comes down to in my books. A half arsed job. If your gonna do something, do it right imo.

You're talking about two parts of the network. 21CN won't need to be replaced "in 5-10 years time" for FTTH/C, like building an access network dependent upon ATM might very well have required...

Who said it has to be done on a tax basis?

Lord Carter and the Digital Britain report (maybe some of the related BBC coverage)?

Thats because it wasnt a question, it was an offer.
An offer/attempt on your part for me to provide information that very few on the planet could provide. An attempt to 'show me up' as it were.

So you can't provide evidence for your claim that Japan has not upgraded their core network prior to the more recent access network upgrades, because "very few on the planet" could link to, e.g., press releases? Maybe a press release from an Israeli network operator doing exactly the same?

Also one that misses the point of what i was saying, as you seem to be beliving that i was concentrating on the edge only. When ive said the core as well, multiple times.

You are focussing on the access network, but you've also missed the point of what I've been saying as well as what the point of 21CN is (which was never to be an access network upgrade).
The core network has to be upgraded (and indeed had to be upgraded anyway) before there's any point attaching an upgraded access network to it.

 

[BoomAM]

http://globalservices.bt.com/LeafAc...nhanced_Platform_Services_solutions_all_en-gb

http://www.btplc.com/21CN/BTcustomers/Residentialcustomer/FAQs/Network.htm

Lord Carter and the Digital Britain report (maybe some of the related BBC coverage)?

So a report based on opinion and a few links from BT constitute evidence?
When BTs stuff is bound to be bias and the report is classed as gospel is it?

So you can't provide evidence for your claim that Japan is better, because "very few on the planet" could link to press releases? Hmm?

You asked for details on where/how on the core. The exact technical details are not something that'd be out in the public domain is it.
That links is little more than a press release saying their working with Cisco.

You are focussing on the core, but you've also missed the point of what I've been saying as well as what the point of 21CN. The core network has to be upgraded (and indeed had to be upgraded anyway) before there's any point attaching an upgraded access network to it.

Which is what ive said!
Do you not read what i put?
Its basic networking that, no point having fancy edge if the core isnt upto it.
Ive said multiple times, that they should both be done at the same time.
Not that they should concentrate on the edge.
That is what im getting at!

 

[tolien]

So a report based on opinion and a few links from BT constitute evidence?
When BTs stuff is bound to be bias and the report is classed as gospel is it?

Don't let me stop you refuting it with proper evidence to support your claim that 21CN doesn't represent cost savings and is a waste. Network convergence and the replacement of legacy equipment to build a new network which is more easily expandable, more automated and saves money?

Its basic networking that

Couldn't have said it better myself.

As for the report, what the hell? The report's produced by the Government, with input from network operators, OfCom, content providers et al and proposes a £6 per annum tax which would be put towards the rollout of a next generation access network.

You asked for details on where/how on the core. The exact technical details are not something that'd be out in the public domain is it.
That links is little more than a press release saying their working with Cisco.

I didn't say details, I said demonstrate where other network operators haven't followed a similar pattern. Those press releases give enough technical information that you can see they're not extending an ATM network but rather using MPLS.
If you want more, how about a Huawei release about their softswitches being used in KPN (Dutch telco) and France Telecom's all-IP (NGN/21CN) networks.

Which is what ive said!

I didn't say you didn't? Though, actually you've been saying they should be done simultaneously rather than one after the other.

Do you not read what i put?

Or you what I write?

Its basic networking that, no point having fancy edge if the core isnt upto it.
Ive said multiple times, that they should both be done at the same time.
Not that they should concentrate on the edge.
That is what im getting at!

And I've said often enough that would add up to a ridiculous sum of money, questioned where the investment would come from and indicated that upgrading the core followed by the access network was better than nothing...

 

[BoomAM]

If the reports done by the goverment and multiple consultation agencies, it must be right eh?
Lord knows that 'Goverment Reports' havnt been wrong before.... (so close to using Rolleyes there...)

Though, actually you've been saying they should be done simultaneously rather than one after the other.

Correct, i did. And for a reason.

We'll have to agree to disagree here im afraid. I stick by my opinion wholeheartedly and i aint budging because imo im right.
Same way that in yours your right.

 

[Minty-Linty]

guys guys, listern. the whole point of 21cn is fibre to the green cab in your street, ok. then the short distant from your house to the cab will be copper. ok. this means. less interferance, less noise on the line too. hense you will get far greater speeds and it should be more or less 24mb. (This was from a BT sales rep).

 

[Daegan]

<gumf>

Fibre to the cabinet isn't part of 21cn. The sales rep told you a porkie.