Your land is mine... WTF

[Abz]

Of course the arabs will no accept any form of peace deal since the land is theirs in the first place.

Even the recent Gaza conflict can you justify what Israel did? the weapons why used and sending the country back 50 years?

Where is all of Israel funds coming from? they have no natural resources, how come they have the latest weapons and even nuclear capability.

they drove all the Palestinians out and most of the are refugees in neighboring countries

 

[Tefal]

Of course the arabs will no accept any form of peace deal since the land is theirs in the first place.

Even the recent Gaza conflict can you justify what Israel did? the weapons why used and sending the country back 50 years?

Where is all of Israel funds coming from? they have no natural resources, how come they have the latest weapons and even nuclear capability.

they drove all the Palestinians out and most of the are refugees in neighboring countries

Same questions to you then.

but the fact is it's happened, you can sit around and moan about how wrong it is. or just get o nwith it.

whatrs your solution force all the people who have been born there to move?

where to?

what do you do with the huge amount of military hardware? you can't let that fall into the Palestinian or other arab hands.

what abotu the NBC weapons?


How do you police the inevitable civil war that would happen if you somehow took away all the Israelis and gave the pals the land?

How would you stop the other arab nations doing a land grab of Jerusalem and other holy places?

 

[Abz]

Its too late for peace Tefal...

unfortunately the land now neither belongs to the Jews or to the Palestinians. Belongs to everyone there now, they just need to be sensible and share it, which will never happen.

Like you said what about the people who where born there now. That land is a beautiful land, its a shame its under conflict.

Military power is useless unless you are weak, its about principles. The last thing you want now is give arabs WMD's, then you will unleash a horrible daemon buried in their hearts.

The land was in peace before the Israelis came and took it. But the point now because of the ignorance of both nations I dont think they will ever come to an agreement.

that land will never be peaceful and it never was.

 

[Darg]

Its too late for that Tefal...

unfortunately the land now neither belongs to the Jews or to the Palestinians.

Like you said what about the people who where born there now. That land is a beautiful land, its a shame its under conflict.

Military power is useless unless you are weak, its about principles. The last thing you want now is give arabs WMD's, then you will unleash a horrible daemon buried in their hearts.

The land was in peace before the Israelis came and took it. But the point now because of the ignorance of both nations I dont think they will ever come to an agreement.

that land will never be peaceful and it never was.

So what do you suggest? What compromise would you like to see?

 

[Random Guy]

You strangely forgot to mention that the Arabs rejected this partition plan, while the Jews accepted it.

You seem to be conveniently omitting the fact that this partition plan granted the Israeli side favourable access to natural resources, especially water.

 

[Sankari]

Day off work to day Evan?

On holiday, mate. Raising hell on OcUK whilst keeping one eye on the Ashes and the other eye on my wife's visa application.

This post delivers - Well written, now I suggest you stop wasting any more time pointing out to Abz how wrong he is.... as he seems to have some underpants to air or wash or something!

Thanks.

You seem to be conveniently omitting the fact that this partition plan granted the Israeli side favourable access to natural resources, especially water.

Did it? That's an interesting claim. Never heard that one before, and I was sure I'd come across all the usual stuff. Do you have anything to substantiate it? The idea seems quite fanciful to me, particularly since there is no record of the Arabs rejecting the proposal on that basis. Their argument was (a) we want more land (in fact, they wanted virtually all of it), and (b) we want full control of Jerusalem.

Yes, I'd be very interested to see how you go about backing up this allegation.

 

[Sankari]

Interesting reading, I admit I didn't know a lot of that took place. Thanks for posting some real evidence.

My pleasure.

Did the jewish allow the arabs refugees to return after the war?

For the most part, no. The reason for this was that the Arab refugees had left Israel with the intention of returning and plundering her once the war was over and their Arab brethren had won. (Indeed, this is precisely what the other Arabs had promised them).

Israel therefore took the view that she could not afford to compromise her security by allowing the re-entry of people who had (a) rejected an offer of peaceful co-existence, (b) rejected an offer of Israeli citizenship (without in any way compromising their ethnicity or religious beliefs) and had planned to loot Israel after the Arab crusaders had finished with her. There are weaknesses to this argument (mainly from a humanitarian perspective) but it is not difficult to understand the rationale.

Around Arabs 140,000 chose to remain in Israel, while 550,000 Arabs left or were expelled, as a result of the war. The kingdom of Jordan took in a large number of Arab refugees (the people we now know as Palestinians) and the Palestinians repaid the Jordanians' kindness by attempting to overthrow the monarchy and take control of the kingdom via military coup, in 1970. Understandably, this has made the other Arabs even more reluctant to allow Palestinians into their own countries.

Meanwhile, some 860,000 Jews were forced out of Arab nations as a result of the war. Of these, around 680,000 were taken in by Israel. It is therefore interesting to note that the Jews treated their brethren with far more generosity than the Arabs treated each other.

Do you have any evidence of how Israel have gone about taking over palestinians land in the west bank?

I've probably got some sitting on my hard drive somewhere. I usually don't bother to record much evidence of this; it's always in the news, and well documented. Israel's usual method is to establish Jewish settler sites on Palestinian-controlled territory, and back them up with military support (which is, of course, highly illegal and immoral). They then bulldoze Palestinian houses and kick out the locals.

Those are the situations I care most about, where people are actually forced out. All your quotes seem to be about the ANC royally ****ing up the entire situation which I agree they did, they did more to harm the palestinians back then then the Israelis did.

Yes, this is true.

What about since then like in the west bank?

Human Rights Watch is an excellent source for this sort of information. Try clicking here.

Do you agree that any arabs that were kicked out and are being kicked out of their homes should be allowed to keep the lands they owned?

Yes, of course. Though most of them didn't own "lands" as such; they just owned regular properties, like you and I.

Are you familiar with this picture?

 

[Abz]

So what do you suggest? What compromise would you like to see?

Good question... if I was a nutter then I say destroy Israel and drive them from the land.

As a sensible person (I hope) I would like to see them live side by side and each have an equal portion of the land.

But thats unlikely, the fact remains the Arabs are angry and the reason they are not doing anything about it is because they have corrupt rulers. The canister is filling with pressure.

If they want the land back they should have done something about it after the land was taken by the Israelis.

But this is not civilized, especially when the Jews are entitled to be there coz of the its holy sites.

 

[Random Guy]

Israel offered its Arab population full citizenship and harmonious co-existence within Israel. By contrast, the surrounding Arab nations told their brethren to leave Israel so that they might destroy her. They then abandoned the Arab refugees who were left behind when Israel humiliated the Arab crusaders by defeating them wholesale. They refused to accept those refugees into their own countries, and forced them into a buffer zone between themselves and Israel. The Jews have since been left to deal with the consequences.

One caveat: there were attacks by Jewish forces on Arab living within Israel shortly before to the 1948 war. Some Arabs were driven out by Israel. But these events were aberrations, and the numbers were very small.

You are very good at quoting and referencing things selectively.

Of course, the wider context of all this was the Balfour Declaration and the Orthodox Jewish movement in Russia in the late 1800s. Of all the places to choose to resettle, the Holy Land was earmarked early on in the game. This was followed by the rise of Hitler, the Holocaust, and then the Irgun and all those Zionist ****ers.

You can say whatever you like, but you know as well as I do, that Israel has guaranteed itself an eternal war with the Palestinians, who WERE native and WERE indigenous to the land, and WERE NOT consulted regarding the illegal action of creating the new Jewish state. This will unfortunately only end in one way, and that is with great bloodshed, imo.

 

[mmj_uk]

Prior to WW2 Arabs and Jews lived together in peace in the region, since Israel was established there has been nothing but conflict and suffering for both parties as well as the wider surrounding region, the only difference in all of this is the Israeli government.

Ahmadinejad was correct when he said that the state of Israel should be wiped from the pages of history (he was conveniently misquoted as saying that Israel should be nuked off the map) because it was a huge mistake and has destabilized the whole region to the point that a huge war is inevitable, he was also spot on when he called Israel a racist government. Jews and Arabs co-existing in Palestine were safer before the Israeli state was created and even Jewish rabbi's who have said as such.

The whole situation is a mess I don't even think a two state solution will work anymore, Israel won't be satisfied until all Palestinian's are either dead or evicted. Ideally we need a single state and government that treats Arabs and Jews as equals and has the best interest of both parties in mind, even Arabs living in Israel claim to be treated differently than Jews.

 

[Participant]

!

Blimey. The A-rabs should recruit her powah in an official capacity! One little lady against all those Jews and verily she smote them from whence they came!

 

[Abz]

You tell me you believe everything in the news...

That picture is nothing lol

 

[Random Guy]

Nope, can't agree with that. There is no "globally suspected undercurrent of genocide and marginality of the Palestinians". If anything, they are the most strongly represented, supported and financed group of stateless Arabs in the Middle East.

In July this year, the Palestinians received $200 million from the USA. Last year, the Palestinians received €296 million from the European Union.

Examples could be multiplied. The Palestinians certainly aren't short of cash. What they're short of is good governance and a desire for peace.

Yet another curious reference, with no balance as to the status of the other side. How much money does Israel get exactly, funded by the U.S. taxpayer, on an annual basis? How much money has that amounted to in the last 10 years alone? How much money in donations from the Jewish diaspora around the world, some of whom although secular, are far more bigoted than the native Israelis? How about media support through affiliation with Western bodies e.g. portrayal in the news?

As to your claims of good governance, that is laughable, and probably highlights to me best where your affiliations and bias lie. Successive Israeli governments have constantly cried wolf every time in protest at the 'lack of leadership' of the Palestinians. Even after illegaly ousting Hamas (democratically elected by the Palestinian people) in conjunction with the U.S. administration at the time, Israel (and its justifiers) will still try to play this card.

This topic was made on the basis of yet another illegal move by the Isrealis. I would like all forum-goers here to know that the OT is something that happens and has happened on a regular basis to Palestinians for the last 60 years.

Examples:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/19/us-bingo-funding-israeli-settlements

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_aid_to_Israel.gif

Ever hear of Walt and Mearshimer?

 

[Participant]

You tell me you believe everything in the news...

That picture is nothing lol

I'm complementing her on her powah! That's a good thing!

You need to relax a bit Abz, go and get a massage or something.

 

[Sankari]

You are very good at quoting and referencing things selectively.

Did you have any examples in mind?

Of course, the wider context of all this was the Balfour Declaration and the Orthodox Jewish movement in Russia in the late 1800s. Of all the places to choose to resettle, the Holy Land was earmarked early on in the game. This was followed by the rise of Hitler, the Holocaust, and then the Irgun and all those Zionist ****ers.

Yes, the Balfour Declaration is part of the wider context. The Orthodox Jewish movement in Russia is irrelevant, since the Orthodox Jews opposed the Zionist movement and have continued to deny the legitimacy of the Jewish state on religious grounds. Their view is that the Jewish state can only be legitimately rebuilt by the Messiah, and that any attempt to revive it before his return is an act of opposition to the will of God.

Many of the earliest Zionists were actually atheists and freethinkers.

You can say whatever you like, but you know as well as I do, that Israel has guaranteed itself an eternal war with the Palestinians

Yes, she has.

who WERE native and WERE indigenous to the land,

No they weren't. They don't even make this claim themselves. They openly state that they are Arab nationals. This is in their own definition of "Palestinian". They did not have a nation; they did not have a state; they did not have a unique identity; they do not have a unique ethnicity; they do not have a unique language; they do not have a unique culture. They don't even have a unique history.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. You can put your fingers in your ears for as long as you like, but the truth will still be waiting for you when you take them out again.

and WERE NOT consulted regarding the illegal action of creating the new Jewish state. This will unfortunately only end in one way, and that is with great bloodshed, imo.

They didn't need to be consulted, because (a) Israel didn't belong to them, and (b) the Jews offered them citizenship and peaceful co-existence in the new Jewish state, so they could have just remained where they were and got on with their lives as usual.

The UN vote was entirely legal, and the Arabs have been trying to overthrow it by illegal means ever since.

 

[Abz]

I'm complementing her on her powah! That's a good thing!

You need to relax a bit Abz, go and get a massage or something.

lol 4real man, am getting carried away

I've probably got some sitting on my hard drive somewhere. I usually don't bother to record much evidence of this; it's always in the news, and well documented.

I meant by that not you

 

[Sankari]

Blimey. The A-rabs should recruit her powah in an official capacity! One little lady against all those Jews and verily she smote them from whence they came!

Yes, and the funniest thing is... she's a Jew.

A Jewish settler, to be precise. Those IDF soldiers are evicting her from her home.

 

[Abz]

They didn't need to be consulted, because (a) Israel didn't belong to them, and (b) the Jews offered them citizenship and peaceful co-existence in the new Jewish state, so they could have just remained where they were and got on with their lives as usual.

The UN vote was entirely legal, and the Arabs have been trying to overthrow it by illegal means ever since.

I disagree, they where forced out

even some jews say the occupied land belongs to the Palestinians

 

[Sankari]

Yet another curious reference, with no balance as to the status of the other side.

What's curious about it? Why do I need to mention the other side? What is the relevance of that to the original point? None that I can see.

Remember, this is the claim to which I was responding:

The fact that it's part of an encroaching initiative by the Israelis against the backdrop of a globally suspected undercurrent of genocide and marginality of the Palestinians just make it worse.

(Source).

Now you're completely changing the goalposts by shooting off on a tangent. What you're saying has nothing to do with the original issue.

How much money does Israel get exactly, funded by the U.S. taxpayer, on an annual basis? How much money has that amounted to in the last 10 years alone? How much money in donations from the Jewish diaspora around the world, some of whom although secular, are far more bigoted than the native Israelis? How about media support through affiliation with Western bodies e.g. portrayal in the news?

America gives billions to Israel, as do some other nations I thought everyone already knew this? What's your point? Do you have one? Is it relevant to the point I was addressing when I wrote what I did? If so, how?

As to your claims of good governance, that is laughable, and probably highlights to me best where your affiliations and bias lie. Successive Israeli governments have constantly cried wolf every time in protest at the 'lack of leadership' of the Palestinians. Even after illegaly ousting Hamas (democratically elected by the Palestinian people) in conjunction with the U.S. administration at the time, Israel (and its justifiers) will still try to play this card.

If you seriously think the Palestinians haven't suffered from bad governance, you must be living in a parallel universe. Even their wonderful "democratic elections" were blighted by a hailstorm of bullets, sectarian violence and deadly clashes between Hamas and Fatah militias. Is that your idea of a democratic election? Is that your idea of good governance? Do you think that a government magically becomes 100% legitimate simply because it was voted in?

Hamas is a terrorist group with the avowed aim of destroying the Jewish state. Their own constitution makes reference to the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. Doesn't that make you stop and think for - just a moment - that there might be something a little bit wrong with these guys?

If Al Qaeda was voted into government by the Pakistani people tomorrow, would you consider this a legitimate outcome? Would you consider Al Qaeda a legitimate government?

This topic was made on the basis of yet another illegal move by the Isrealis. I would like all forum-goers here to know that the OT is something that happens and has happened on a regular basis to Palestinians for the last 60 years.

Examples:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/19/us-bingo-funding-israeli-settlements

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_aid_to_Israel.gif

Well at long last you came up with something substantive. But even now, you merely repeat a point that I had already made: that the Israelis are illegally occupying Palestinian land and removing Palestinians from their homes. Well, I guess immitation is the best form of flattery. So thanks for that.

Ever hear of Walt and Mearshimer?

No, but let me guess: high profile Jews in the USA?

If you're going to start talking about Jewish influence on American foreign policy, you'll be talking to the wall. Everyone knows that Israel wields tremendous power over American governments - a power that she abuses outrageously. Consequently, America usually turns a blind eye to Israel's crimes. That's no secret, and never has been.

 

[Sankari]

I disagree, they where forced out

even some jews say the occupied land belongs to the Palestinians

Some of them were forced out, yes. Most left on their own volition.

Some of the land occupied by Israel belongs to the Palestinians, yes. The overwhelming majority of it doesn't.

I wonder when Egypt, Syria and Jordan will get their land back? Surely it's time to end the Palestinian occupation!