The god delusion... Religious debate

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what, no religion praises them to kill.
Also people are corrupted by power they do not need religion. Many of the people who hold the power are not religious and just as dangerous, Just look at Russias past.

Islam. And some of the fundamentalist Christian stuff is quite unnerving. Watch a film called Jesus Camp, it's pretty harrowing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's exclusive to religion. But religion gives many of these people a cause to use that power.
 
Islam. And some of the fundamentalist Christian stuff is quite unnerving. Watch a film called Jesus Camp, it's pretty harrowing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's exclusive to religion. But religion gives many of these people a cause to use that power.


Find actual extracts of the religions texts that praise killing. the whole killing for religion comes from it's followers/preachers rather than the text.


Same way people use all sorts of crap to justify their wars and actions.
 
Let's put it at it's most simplest form...have you or any of your friends benefited from life after death or food being magicaly produced from nowhere? or have you or your friends benifited from, healthcare, modern farming, the internet, the computer, modern housing, flight, etc?

My comment was actually in support of science, but it's easy to get confused when you don't read things properly. As for benefots from the metaphysical, truthfully yes. There's a compount called DMT (dimethyltryptamine, I think) that's produced in a lot of plants (you may know of ayahuasca, a drink brewed by a lot of tribal shamans across the world to facilitate their sojourns into the spirit world), and also in the human brain - that gland right in the centre, pituitary or pineal, I can never remember which. Anyway, there's strong evidence ([url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dmt-Molecule-Revolutionary-near-Death-Experiences/dp/0892819278/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252732540&sr=8-1]DMT: The Spirit Molecule by Dr. Strassman[/url], for example) linking DMT to the near-death experiences so many people share - specifically, the tunnel with the light at the end. Getting to the point, taking DMT induces a near-death experience, and very few people I know who have tried it came away unchanged - in fact, I don't think I know a single one. I don't mean 'changed' like they had their minds shattered and ended up on the street drooling for pennies, or lost the will to resist and dived headfirst into hard IV drug use, but just got their perspectives shifted. One girl had her OCD virtually cured - she still washes her hands a lot, but she has no fear of insidious microbes. It helped my old weed dealer quit heroin, and he's running an arts collaboration in Brighton now. And it helped me man up, drop a significant portion of my lazy ways and pursue a career.

Bottom line, science doesn't have all the answers, and probably never will. Religion, on the other hand, is ****ing useless.
 
Islam. And some of the fundamentalist Christian stuff is quite unnerving. Watch a film called Jesus Camp, it's pretty harrowing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's exclusive to religion. But religion gives many of these people a cause to use that power.

Find actual extracts of the religions texts that praise killing. the whole killing for religion comes from it's followers/preachers rather than the text.


Same way people use all sorts of crap to justify their wars and actions.
 
what are the food menu choices again?

atheist - NO there isnt a God
agnostic - not enough evidence to draw conclusions therefore DONT KNOW
believer? - YES there is a God

nah im not hungry....*pushes plate away* Never been to Mcdonalds not gonna start now.....

....its all a ball of crap..i am the only one who feels like they are being patronized?? by the very nature/structure of what is being put in front of me?

(use of capital letters and food metaphor is deliberate)

sage words of wisdom from Dolph and Semi-pro as usual
 
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why?

also agnostic is can't prove it/don't care

You sure about that? The bit about agnosticism and not caring... could you provide an dictionary definition thanks. As the not caring bit applies to another "belief" system that i hadnt mentioned :)

its difficult for me to explain but its a difference the breadth of the grand canyon....

You could say its the vagaries between one type of logic e.g. Aristotelian to contemporary mathematical logic. Its utterly vast..so to be presented with something in terms that are clearly obsolete is patronizing.

to put it simply... Did you beat your mother into unconsciousness on Friday OR was it the Saturday? Which is it Friday or Saturday?

Certain questions should not be asked because they bespeak/represent a system which no longer applies. But because the question is asked...people answer unfortunately.

The terms and entire schema used are loaded. So i'd rather not be once again restricted to only going to Mcdonalds for me dinner all the time thanks :)
 
ag·nos·tic
2 : a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

Then if you don't want to be limited that say what your are.
It really isn't a big thing and they aren't loaded. It's only loaded if you have an agenda.
 
ag·nos·tic
2 : a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

Then if you don't want to be limited that say what your are.
It really isn't a big thing and they aren't loaded. It's only loaded if you have an agenda.

Where is the reference to it being about the person not caring? Unwillingness to commit is not the same as not caring. It is a somewhat significant distinction.

re: your second bit

Dont think you understood what i said but thats my fault nm

nothing but sophistry and illusion.........
 
Haven't read the whole thread yet, but I posted my opinion of the God Delusion in another one a few months ago:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14400892&postcount=69

If you wanted to find out about the culture of an Amazonian tribe, would you send an anthropologist or a missionary? The former might seek to keenly observe the people and beliefs they are interested in. If particularly dedicated, they may even seek to assimilate themselves in to the culture. Unless they are repulsed by what they find, we might expect it to be rare that they would seek to change the people they interact with. The missionary, while perhaps taking time to learn the language and local etiquette, will ultimately seek to change the people they interact with.

In Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion, the author clearly has an agenda of change in mind. I don’t know if he’d mind the term, but he has an air of missionary zeal about him. As early as the prologue, he states his intentions: that agnostics and theists reading the book might become atheists. Although he has religion in general in mind, his attack on religion is particularly targeted at Christianity, as that is the religion with which he is most familiar.

Christianity, in its various guises, has a few easy targets to aim for. Dawkins, an authority on evolutionary biology, is well equipped to take down some of the more ridiculously anti-scientific or unscientific expressions that have become attached to it. He is a clear communicator and the book is easy to read, especially when presenting scientific concepts. As we can fully explain these processes, Dawkins goes on to indicate that there is no room for a god-of-the-gaps. If we don’t need a god to explain anything , why would we need one at all?

As Dawkins strays from his professional field though, a few inconsistencies are apparent. He is happy to voice support for hypotheses with little evidential basis, as long as they suit his position. As he wanders from biology into physics, his enthusiasm for the concept of an evolving multiverse slips in. For someone seemingly so grounded in scientific empiricism, voicing support for something that is not currently falsifiable seems a little odd. The author doesn’t fail to notice this. Endorsement of this currently unproved hypothesis is claimed to be justified over belief in God, in that it is inherently simple, and therefore relatively believable. If God existed, explains Dawkins, He would be inherently complicated. The probability of such a being existing is explained in evolutionary terms and, according to such terms, would be improbable.

There’s an obvious objection that must be voiced here: no theistic system that I am aware of, with the possible very tenuous exception of Mormonism, believes in these kinds of god. They are classic straw man fallacies, and obvious ones at that. Perhaps Dawkins doesn’t realise that the arguments come across in a similar way to Aquinas’ proofs: arguments intended to stand together, cementing an existing position. And so the book progresses, although often with more subtlety, as men of straw are successively lined up and dispatched, one by one.

As Dawkins’ book continues, one can’t help but notice a strange Popperesque air of positivism. Non scientific knowledge is implicitly, and in the case of theology – explicitly, dismissed. It is here that we run into the book’s biggest flaw. Dawkins has stumbled headlong into academic fields of which he is deliberately ignorant. The author claims that there is no need to engage in theology, any more than one would study pixies. Why then, does he waste so much time developing his own probabilistic theology and take so little time engaging in discussion relating to presumably recognised academic disciplines such as history?

An extraordinarily selective view of first century Christian history is presented and little peer-reviewed work cited, with some frankly crackpot fringe views thrown in because they vaguely support the intended argument. Dawkins fails to mention where the few sources he does cite recognise the canonical gospels as early (and in at least one case) primary witnesses by people that believed that Jesus was resurrected. He dismisses this historicity of the New Testament based on the opinions of 19th Century theologians with, it has to be said, some- but by no means universal -current support . As it happens, things have moved on from there, although not necessarily to the literalistic historicity the Fundamentalists might hope for.

A ten year old biology textbook would be out of date in some areas. Likewise, history and theology have moved on. Recent peer reviewed work by secular historians on the dating and nature of the Gospels might have given Dawkins a harder argument to tackle but he chose not to engage with it. The lack of reading in this area was a glaring omission at first but has taken a more recent ironic turn. Earlier this year, A. N. Wilson, the author of one of Dawkins’ few sources on the historical Jesus publicly retracted some of the views he had expressed in his biography Jesus: A Life. While announcing his conversion to a relatively standard Trinity-believing Christianity in a national newspaper, Wilson blamed his former atheism on intellectual ‘peer pressure’ from Richard Dawkins, amongst others.

Perhaps intellectual peer pressure really does get to the crux of the matter. The title of the book gives it away. Dawkins admits that the theistic argument that he finds most difficult to deal with is the one from ‘personal’ experience. He emphasises the ‘personal’, as it is easier to dismiss than corporate or objectively demonstrable experience, which is harder to dismiss as a delusion. And here is where Dawkins, slips into an argument from personal incredulity. He goes to great lengths to dismiss the views of theists that he regards as ‘otherwise’ objective, seemingly misrepresenting individuals (Robert Winston certainly wasn’t happy) and attempting to portray an artificially minimised number of theists working in mainstream science. Sowing seeds of doubt here is Dawkins’ riposte to what will be most convincing for many believers: if you think you’ve experienced anything supernatural, you are mistaken.

The most uncomfortable argument for a reader from one of the Abrahamic religions is probably where Dawkins turns to ethics. Here we are reminded, based on the Bible, of the acts of the Israelite people and their sometimes fierce, warrior God. There are serious questions here. Can an end ever justify such terrible means? Can a God that endorses, and indeed commands, such violence really be regarded as good? If religion makes people comfortable with these things then perhaps there is something wrong with it.

There is something of a recovery in the latter stages of the book, which builds to a wonderful crescendo on the sense of awe that scientific knowledge can bring. I fear that by this point, Dawkins will have lost those of his readers with much knowledge in the areas in which he is ignorant. Even if he had engaged them in the early stages, they will have been turned off by carelessness on par with a Young Earther dismissing radiometric dating.

Thinking back to my introduction, we can imagine a third visitor to our remote corner of South America: the travel writer. This third figure isn’t necessarily interested being immersed in the local culture. Their job is simply telling the uninformed whether it’s worth going there. The chances are that their article will mainly be read by people that don’t live in the depths of the Amazon. Most of the people reading it, will never have considered visiting the place and this won’t change their opinion. Some people, who were thinking of going, will be put off. What if the anthropologist or the missionary were to read the article? If either of them did read it, I expect they might respond with “so they didn’t see...”, “so they didn’t understand...” or “why didn’t they mention ...?”. One might wonder whether it’s more probable that people of the Amazonian tribe will read the unfavourable article, or if a reader will decide to visit the area, in spite of what they’ve read.

Edit: Having read up on Karl Popper since writing the above, I accept that "Popperesque air of positivism" looks a bit silly...
 
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Find actual extracts of the religions texts that praise killing. the whole killing for religion comes from it's followers/preachers rather than the text.


Same way people use all sorts of crap to justify their wars and actions.

In a sense I don't need to even quote scriptures in order to prove my point. You've said that it comes from the preachers rather than the text and that's what I'm really trying to say. Religion may be, on it's own, harmless, but given to the hands of men, as we have seen, it is used to commit terrible acts.

I'm not saying that religion is exclusive in it's excuses to commit wars and atrocities, but it is a rather prominent, rather dangerous aspect of that. One which shouldn't be dealt with lightly.

A few quotes because I know I'll be laughed at if I don't give them:

“Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57)

“Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).

“I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).

Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.” This friendship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people.

Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Sura 8:59-60 “Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of God, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.”

etc etc - there's plenty of it. And yes, I don't doubt that a lot of it has it's own historical context. But it is being used by evil men to commit evil acts and as such, must be destroyed.
 
etc etc - there's plenty of it. And yes, I don't doubt that a lot of it has it's own historical context. But it is being used by evil men to commit evil acts and as such, must be destroyed.

I can't do anything but laugh at that statement. The ignorance is shocking. religion isn't the only thing used to do evil acts. Just look at recent wars. WMD. Or even look at Russia and the atheist past.

So much closed minded ignorance in this thread and the general population.
 
I can't do anything but laugh at that statement. The ignorance is shocking. religion isn't the only thing used to do evil acts. Just look at recent wars. WMD. Or even look at Russia and the atheist past.

So much closed minded ignorance in this thread and the general population.

Hello?

I have repeatedly stated that religion isn't the only thing that is facilitating these things. In fact, I am painfully aware of Russia and acts committed by those with no affiliation with a religion.

I'm simply pointing out that religion is not the innocent thing people seem to be trying to make it out as.

Just because it isn't the only thing that has facilitated evil acts doesn't make it okay. It means that there's unfortunately a fact that man, once it's given such freedom and power, that man becomes corrupt. Or is very likely to corrupt. Religion offers such freedom and such power, and what with our technology as it is - it's a harrowing prospect.
 
Hello?

I have repeatedly stated that religion isn't the only thing that is facilitating these things. In fact, I am painfully aware of Russia and acts committed by those with no affiliation with a religion.

I'm simply pointing out that religion is not the innocent thing people seem to be trying to make it out as.

Just because it isn't the only thing that has facilitated evil acts doesn't make it okay. It means that there's unfortunately a fact that man, once it's given such freedom and power, that man becomes corrupt. Or is very likely to corrupt. Religion offers such freedom and such power, and what with our technology as it is - it's a harrowing prospect.

None of which excuses your ignorance that it needs to be destroyed.
 
what are the food menu choices again?

atheist - NO there isnt a God
agnostic - not enough evidence to draw conclusions therefore DONT KNOW
believer? - YES there is a God

atheist - I see no evidence of a god, the same I see no evidence of the invisible man in the corner of my room right now. So I'm going to say there is no god, just as I am alone right now, because I don't want to end up with a sore bum.
 
Oli

out of curiousity what kind of evidence would you accept? that would establish to you the existence of God(s) :)
 
None of which excuses your ignorance that it needs to be destroyed.

It's not ignorance, it's a sense of reason and logic. A sense of reason and logic that can't just nod and agree with people having that sort of power over others. Power that is formed out of nothing but conjecture. Power that in the wrong hands (which it often is) could lead to and has already lead to, the loss of many innocent lives.

To be "tolerant" of religion is to be an "enabler" - perhaps destroying it is an extreme response in the heat of the moment. At the very least, it should stay out of politics and not be treated as this "love the world, save the animals" kind of thing that it seems to be by a lot of people. It is dangerous. And needs to be treated as such.

I'm not arrogant enough as to think that I have all the answers that religion supposes to have. Answers that very often have little or no scientific or reasonable backing.

Don't get me wrong, and I'm going to say this one more time, I don't think that religion is the cause of all wars or crap like that. I am fully aware (note: Not ignorant) that the root cause of such things is man - however, religion enables man to perform horrific acts (9/11, 7/7, Madrid etc etc) with the thought that they are doing what is right in the name of a God, who may or may not even exist.

To believe in a religion is arrogant just as believing in nothing at all is also arrogant. To think you have all the answers and to reject the possibility of being wrong is dangerous. Religion, is dangerous. It should be treated as such.
 
It's not ignorance, it's a sense of reason and logic. A sense of reason and logic that can't just nod and agree with people having that sort of power over others. Power that is formed out of nothing but conjecture. Power that in the wrong hands (which it often is) could lead to and has already lead to, the loss of many innocent lives.

=.

who has such power?

Out of 10's of millions you have a few 10's of thousand that are extremists. Massive over reaction and certainly is total ignorance.

To be "tolerant" of religion is to be an "enabler" - perhaps destroying it is an extreme response in the heat of the moment. At the very least, it should stay out of politics and not be treated as this "love the world, save the animals" kind of thing that it seems to be by a lot of people. It is dangerous. And needs to be treated as such.



.

Again for 10's of millions it very much is the ""love the world, save the animals" kind of thing"
Religion is far from dangerous. To be dangerous you have to add humans and the manipulation and mental instability that goes with being human. But of course this is not confined to religion and destroying religion would not solve anything. As these extremists are not religious and would do exactly the same things without religion. It would be for national pride one of a thousand other reasons.

And your view that it should be destroyed is the exact same view as extremists who think western culture should be destroyed. It is ignorant and dangerous.
 
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who has such power?

Out of 10's of millions you have a few 10's of thousand that are extremists. Massive over reaction and certainly is total ignorance.

Power controlled by the preachers, the religious authority of the religions, those who are willing to act in the name of their god.

How many people does it take to set off a nuclear device? How many people does it take to fly planes into skyscrapers or bomb buses?

You're right in that there are fewer extremists than "normal" religious people, but is it that hard for one of these "normal" people to become and extremist? And does it even matter? That's 10s of thousands which you say are extremists (It would be nice to have an actual figure, but that's unlikely considering the nature of this) who are willing to kill, often wanting to kill as many people as possible because they believe they are right. Because they are being told that they are right. Does that not seem wrong to you? Just because they may be a minority doesn't suddenly make it okay, it doesn't make the messages that are being portrayed as okay. If I got on the television and started raving about how we should kill all the Muslims, I highly doubt you would be of the stance "Oh, it's okay, because only a few people are actually going to do that."

And what if somehow one of these extremist groups (although religion itself is arguably an extremist view) got their hands on a nuclear device and set it off somewhere and killed a whole load of people, would you still honestly say "Oh, it's not the religion that told them to go and kill those people, it's the people themselves?"

To be dangerous you have to add humans and the manipulation and mental instability that goes with being human.

But religion does have that. It was created by man. It is led by man. It is serviced by man.

You are right in that it is man who does these things. But essentially getting rid of religion is like taking the loaded gun out the man's hand, yeah he may try to find another way to kill, but you've removed that method right from him. Potentially saving so many lives.

And your view that it should be destroyed is the exact same view as extremists who think western culture should be destroyed. It is ignorant and dangerous.

I think religion was great when we had no idea how the world worked, when we needed order and civilisation. But now, I don't think it's necessary. And it's dangerous.

Maybe it being destroyed is a bad thing, I hope that there is a level in between it being destroyed and it not being a major controlling factor in so many people's lives.
 
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