Slow down, you're killing the planet

[MikeHunt79]

Will we be seeing LiPo Battery tech in cars? LiPo Batteries are normally a lot lighter than NiMh equivalents. LiPo is slightly more volatile, they do go up well

Ignoring the safety thing for now, LiPo is nice because you can charge it very quickly, unfortunately the capacity goes down over time, and after a few years it's less than half! They're trying to fix this problem right now...

Imagine if your car had a range of 200 miles right now, how much would it suck if in a few years you would struggle to do 40 miles!

Battery tech is viable for most peoples daily needs, the problem is the vehicles available.

I disagree, even if vehicles were around, what batteries would you use that last longer than 5 or even 10 years? Battery replacements are not cheap... Even Lead Acid cells are not free from problems despite lasting longer than other cell types...

Lithium iron is the big boy at the moment. Well until 2014 and NiMh with 30yr lifes are back on the market for 'Vehicular use'. The quoted energy densitys of any lithium chemistry still isnt that much higher when you see the production stuff.

Tom Hanks is still blasting around in his Rav4 EV.

Lithium Ion

NiMh even if they produce batteries that last 30 years, don't they still have problems with memory effects, therefore needing to be deep cycled? Don't they also self discharge in a similar way to crappy Lead Acid cells?

If I was going to have to spend thousands on a battery powered car, I'd insist on Lithium Ion cells, once they fix the capacity loss over time issues...

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Lithium Ion

NiMh even if they produce batteries that last 30 years, don't they still have problems with memory effects, therefore needing to be deep cycled? Don't they also self discharge in a similar way to crappy Lead Acid cells?

If I was going to have to spend thousands on a battery powered car, I'd insist on Lithium Ion cells, once they fix the capacity loss issue...

I think you'll find its Lithium Iron Phosphate with iron cathodes rather than manganese or colbalt of the older stuff... MIRA have the Lifebatt ones in their XJ demo car.

Deep cycled and the full recharged? Just like an EV?
NiMh doesnt have significant memory effects, certainly nothing like NiCd. They do have a degree of self discharge which gest worse if you dont use the batteries often and dendrites start to form, you can reverse though.

Most lithiums are expected to last around 6years.

 

[The Running Man]

id argue its slow. ponderous drivers, you know the kind, indicate to turn... start to turn.. 5 years later they are still braking mid turn down to 2mph... leaving u thinking... if you just turned and drove off without being so incapable of driving properly, i would not have had to come to an almost standstill, and this would not have to accelerate back up again ... same with speed bumps...

none have anything to do with excessive driving, more to do with driving smoothly and maintaining momentum

 

[Dr Who]

I think you'll find its Lithium Iron Phosphate with iron cathodes rather than manganese or colbalt of the older stuff... MIRA have the Lifebatt ones in their XJ demo car.

Yes its lithium Iron, LeFePO4 a type of Li-Ion cell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

Go read now Mike

 

[m4cc45]

I would never use battery tech - you have to ask yourself how the batteries get power so, as JC said to Boris Johnson, where does the electricity come from?

I think the investment has to be in the Hydrogen cars. A few cars already have this technology and there are filling stations in America. To look into any other technology, such as electric cars which have been going on for the last 20 or so years with no real progress, is pointless.

The technology to enable Hydrogen to be gathered is the only real problem but it can be done now and I'm sure in a few years the process will become much more efficient allowing the price to be dropped.



M.

 

[Dr Who]

NiMh even if they produce batteries that last 30 years, don't they still have problems with memory effects, therefore needing to be deep cycled? Don't they also self discharge in a similar way to crappy Lead Acid cells?

If I was going to have to spend thousands on a battery powered car, I'd insist on Lithium Ion cells, once they fix the capacity loss over time issues...

At the moment, you have to fuel your car fairly regularly, most of this hassle will depart with battery technology vehicles. So once every 5 years to recycle your batteries for replacement doesn't sound that bad to me.

Bear in mind during that time your servicing costs are going to be much lower, no oil and filters to change, just brakes, and even they will experience less wear with regenerative braking technology.

Sure, its not fantastic yet, but had the ZEV initiative not been scrapped, I would almost bet my right arm, america would be at the forefront of EV design and technology, and there would be a lot of options available now.

If the impetus is withdrawn, the investment slows down

 

[stockhausen]

id argue its slow. ponderous drivers, you know the kind, indicate to turn... start to turn.. 5 years later they are still braking mid turn down to 2mph... leaving u thinking... if you just turned and drove off without being so incapable of driving properly, i would not have had to come to an almost standstill, and this would not have to accelerate back up again ... same with speed bumps...

none have anything to do with excessive driving, more to do with driving smoothly and maintaining momentum

none have anything to do with excessive driving

What

 

[Glaucus]

Snip.

That makes no sense, where do you think the energy comes from to make hydrogen.

It's the same place it comes from to charge batteries.

They would save a lot more co2, by sorting junctions out, turning off traffic lights at night and numerous other things they have started to do over the last 5 or so years. which purposeless create traffic jams.

 

[Janesy B]

none have anything to do with excessive driving

What

If you decide to read this post, I think he is suggesting that the real issue is people not driving properly thus causing unnecessary braking and accelerating. If everyone kept longer distances to the car in front and used the controls more gradually, it would be much more beneficial than making everyone go slow all the time.

 

[Dr Who]

I would never use battery tech - you have to ask yourself how the batteries get power so, as JC said to Boris Johnson, where does the electricity come from?

I think the investment has to be in the Hydrogen cars. A few cars already have this technology and there are filling stations in America. To look into any other technology, such as electric cars which have been going on for the last 20 or so years with no real progress, is pointless.

The technology to enable Hydrogen to be gathered is the only real problem but it can be done now and I'm sure in a few years the process will become much more efficient allowing the price to be dropped.



M.

1st, the energy yield of hydrogen is incompatible with the energy used to collect and compress it, therefore it is very wasteful, apart from the need to store a large quantity of highly combustible gas on a vehicle.

2nd, electricity can be generated by wind or nuclear power, effectively zero carbon emmission. It is also far cheaper and more efficient to produce the electricity through poluting methods than run hundreds of thousands of small engines to produce the same energy. ie Even if you use a coal fired power plant, it will be less poluting than the cars.

I am not saying here that everyone should give up their fossil fuel vehicles, but many households have mutiple cars, and needing a 4x4 at the weekend to tow a caravan or whatever, doesnt mean you need that during the week for your daily commute.

What people need are viable options, with both public transport and also with electric vehicles.

The current vehicles are not viable, GM had a viable program for EV's (a ground up design not a crappy conversion) and I just wonder, if they hadnt been so short sighted with that program, what financial state they would be in today, as one of the world leaders in EV design?

I am no evironmental freak, I love my motors, but for a daily commute, I would be happy to use GOOD public transport, or a car such as the old EV1, and everyday I did, I would be reducing my own carbon footprint, knowing that at the weekend, I can have my fun in my fossil fuel vehicle without worrying about how I will get to work Monday if something goes wrong.

It's all about balance people, sure its a bit like peeing in the ocean to raise the level with what is going on in China at the moment, but we cannot take the upper moral hand with them if we all think why bother.

PS. I like Boris Johnson, but he can be an utter retard at times.

 

[Dr Who]

They would save a lot more co2, by sorting junctions out, turning off traffic lights at night and numerous other things they have started to do over the last 5 or so years. which purposeless create traffic jams.

Or just get rid of traffic lights and use roundabouts, they are way more efficient at traffic control if well designed, and use less electricity...

 

[Glaucus]

I am not saying here that everyone should give up their fossil fuel vehicles, but many households have mutiple cars, and needing a 4x4 at the weekend to tow a caravan or whatever, doesnt mean you need that during the week for your daily commute.

What people need are viable options, with both public transport and also with electric vehicles.

I've always said this. the government need to license alternative small vehicles. like sedgways and powered scooters and anything else people come up with. People do not need to drive 2-10miles to work. If they had a cheap alternative. But the government needs to change the rules to allow them, allow them in cycle lanes. Zero road tax and cheap insurance.
Same with a 2nd eco car for commuting and pottering about in. But people aren't going to spend thousands on a 2nd car, then road tax, then insurance.

 

[stockhausen]

If you decide to read this post, I think he is suggesting that the real issue is people not driving properly thus causing unnecessary braking and accelerating. If everyone kept longer distances to the car in front and used the controls more gradually, it would be much more beneficial than making everyone go slow all the time.

'kin' ada, you must have some sort of mind reading capacity

I can't argue with your translation of his thoughts; if people drove more sensibly (properly if you will) with less wild acceleration and braking, it would certainly be an all-round improvement; it would also help if people didn't insist on leap-frogging you if you happened to leave 101% of their car's length between your car and the one in front of you.

 

[m4cc45]

Snip

Aye but you can't guarantee that the power coming out of your socket is from a Nuclear or other renewable power source (obviously if you go with the green companies you can make some allowance for this or if you have your own wind farm, etc.)

Although the hydrogen process at the moment is very messy I expect, in a couple of years, it will get refined. The problem with electricity is it's not very practical. Imagine staying away from home for a couple of weeks - it's not exactly nice to ask the hotel if you can plug your car in.

With Hydrogen it's very easy - similar to filling up your car on Petrol or Diesel but with a locking lever.

We've all gotten so used to going to the petrol station, filling up with petrol and then going on our way - this is why I don't think electric cars will work - you always have to be so meticulous in your planning to have somewhere to recharge them which is not feasable if you're going on holiday or say you have a business trip out of range of the 'full charge'. The time taken for charging, as well, is crazy with some taking a day to charge for a hours driving.


M.

 

[Glaucus]

We've all gotten so used to going to the petrol station, filling up with petrol and then going on our way - this is why I don't think electric cars will work - you always have to be so meticulous in your planning to have somewhere to recharge them which is not feasable if you're going on holiday or say you have a business trip out of range of the 'full charge'. The time taken for charging, as well, is crazy with some taking a day to charge for a hours driving.

fuel cells. top up and go electric cars.

Hydrogen is extremely electric intensive to create. Isn't that how it's created (in extremely simple terms) pass a large voltage across water and it splits the hydrogen and oxygen.

I'm more interested in nano metal. 100% recyclable, used in normal engines. It all depends how energy intensive the recycling is. I expect very.

 

[Captain_Slick]

People do not need to drive 2-10miles to work. If they had a cheap alternative.

Nope, but I'd still drive. Thanks. And I bet the vast majority of other people would too. We don't drive because the alternative is expensive. We drive for a multitude of other reasons; personal space, comfort, taking large items with us, driving enjoyment, whatever.

Hydrogen plz.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

I would never use battery tech - you have to ask yourself how the batteries get power so, as JC said to Boris Johnson, where does the electricity come from?

I think the investment has to be in the Hydrogen cars. A few cars already have this technology and there are filling stations in America. To look into any other technology, such as electric cars which have been going on for the last 20 or so years with no real progress, is pointless.
M.

Once you answer the first question times the answer by 2.5 and apply that to the energy you need to make hydrogen. The answer also is from domestic suppliers, not holes in the middle east.

Ironically its fuel cells which have delayed a lot of the battery stuff moving on after Bush passed his $1.2Bn funding into his hydrogen 'highway' as CARB killed the mandate that required 10% of cars in California to be zero tailpipe emissions by 2003. Worth noting that fuel cell cars still need battery for large current demands on acceleration when the cell just trickle charges the battery, also you need somewhere to store braking energy.

GM did the maths, hummers would make them more profit, they made Hummers.