The all encompassing BNP thread - keep all crap in here.

The problem with manufacturing is we have to follow strict European guidelines/Health and safety/Working practices. This would be fine if we only traded with countries in the European Union as we are all having to follow the same set of rules.

What instead happens is we buy our goods from China and other eastern countries, who have at the best of times, questionable working practices that pushes the price way down. Quite simply we should stop buying from China etc so that they are forced to get their house in order. Use the European Union to it's advantages trade with each other.
 
I tell you what - you try and emigrate to the one of those countries with a work permit without having £10,000s in the bank or a pre-existing job lined up.
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Ok I will :p

I may or may not be married to a US citizen and therefore currently doing this..

The point being, that the US, Canada and Australia still admit tons of immigrants*, and AFAIK there are no laws saying that immigrant workers should be paid less, or be forced to be 'less' competitive to native workers.

*USA has 37 million legal immigrants, 12% of the population
*Canada has 6 million immigrants, 18% of the population
*Australia has 5.5 million immigrants, 25% of the population
*UK has 4.5 million immigrants, 7.5% of the population
 
ColdAsIce said:
The problem with manufacturing is we have to follow strict European guidelines/Health and safety/Working practices. This would be fine if we only traded with countries in the European Union as we are all having to follow the same set of rules.

What instead happens is we buy our goods from China and other eastern countries, who have at the best of times, questionable working practices that pushes the price way down. Quite simply we should stop buying from China etc so that they are forced to get their house in order. Use the European Union to it's advantages trade with each other.
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How will we deal with the resulting inflation?
 
Rich_L said:
Ok I will :p

I may or may not be married to a US citizen and therefore currently doing this..

The point being, that the US, Canada and Australia still admit tons of immigrants*, and AFAIK there are no laws saying that immigrant workers should be paid less, or be forced to be 'less' competitive to native workers.

*USA has 37 million legal immigrants, 12% of the population
*Canada has 6 million immigrants, 18% of the population
*Australia has 5.5 million immigrants, 25% of the population
*UK has 4.5 million immigrants, 7.5% of the population
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How dare you bring rationality into the discussion Rich? You know that has no place here...
 
As much as I think the above arguement is valid.... the figures quoted will only be a guess IMO and so it really is difficult to gauge just how many immigrants are in each country. I used to have a friend that worked in immigration and she always used to say that the government would fudge their own figures to make it look less damaging (which I guess is common knowledge now anyway).
 
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nate247 said:
As much as I think the above arguement is valid.... the figures quoted will only be a guess IMO and so it really is difficult to gauge just how many immigrants are in each country. I used to have a friend that worked in immigration and she always used to say that the government would fudge their own figures to make it look less damaging (which I guess is common knowledge now anyway).
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So basically either way dirtydog's argument is screwed.
 
I don't think any reasonable intelligent person with any sort of common sense has a problem with immigration, it just has to be more tightly controlled. The UK cannot absorb all the problems of the world on its back. Personally I think their are far to many people in the Country that were born and raised here not in work. Until we tackle that problem we will continue to need the number of immigrants we have.
 
ColdAsIce said:
I am not an expert in economics but with hundreds of thousands of jobs returning to the UK and Europe this would soften the blow.
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No it wouldn't, because those hundreds of thousands of jobs are significantly more expensive than the previous producers of the goods. The price of goods will dramatically increase due to the increased wage demands.

This will in turn cause others to demand pay rises to maintain their standard of living, pushing up the prices of the goods/services they provide, thereby meaning that the net result, at best, will be zero benefit to the average person.

This isn't expert level economics, it's basic stuff...
 
dirtydog said:
I was thinking of countries outside the EU like the US, Canada, Australia, as well as Asian countries like Singapore (whose prosperity increased after they left their local equivalent of the EU).
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Rich_L said:
Ok I will :p

I may or may not be married to a US citizen and therefore currently doing this..

The point being, that the US, Canada and Australia still admit tons of immigrants*, and AFAIK there are no laws saying that immigrant workers should be paid less, or be forced to be 'less' competitive to native workers.

*USA has 37 million legal immigrants, 12% of the population
*Canada has 6 million immigrants, 18% of the population
*Australia has 5.5 million immigrants, 25% of the population
*UK has 4.5 million immigrants, 7.5% of the population
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lol
 
Dolph said:
No it wouldn't, because those hundreds of thousands of jobs are significantly more expensive than the previous producers of the goods. The price of goods will dramatically increase due to the increased wage demands.

This will in turn cause others to demand pay rises to maintain their standard of living, pushing up the prices of the goods/services they provide, thereby meaning that the net result, at best, will be zero benefit to the average person.

This isn't expert level economics, it's basic stuff...
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Well I am not trying to benefit the average consumer, it will benefit the European Countries losing manufacturing to Countries that drive down the price of goods by treating their workers as less than human.
 
deuse said:
What you forget is you got california than mexico so all the mexs just run over the border then try to get to another part of the US.

It's like if france was next to us(no sea) then you get a a hell of lot more illegal immigrants here.
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Sweet Jesus, what is happening with the education systems in the USA & UK?
 
Rich_L said:
*USA has 37 million legal immigrants, 12% of the population
*Canada has 6 million immigrants, 18% of the population
*Australia has 5.5 million immigrants, 25% of the population
*UK has 4.5 million immigrants, 7.5% of the population
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Lol, so all these "tough on immigration" countries have higher immigration perecentages than we do?

Shame for those envious of the USA, Aus & Canada's supposed hardline immigration policies then.
 
Chimerical said:
Lol, so all these "tough on immigration" countries have higher immigration perecentages than we do?

Shame for those envious of the USA, Aus & Canada's supposed hardline immigration policies then.
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There are a lot more factors than just percentage of immigrants. Fairly sure if you want to immigrate to these Countries you have to prove you have a job lined up or a skill set that benefits the Country.

Also the problem with many of the immigrants in Britain is they spend very little here. A lot of money gets sent back home, so we don't see as great a benefit as we should from immigrants working here.
 
Chimerical said:
Shame for those envious of the USA, Aus & Canada's supposed hardline immigration policies then.
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Not really as the legal immigrants in the US have to pay their own way i.e Health\dentist ect

Here they get freebies with out putting much into the system and bleed it dry.
 
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ColdAsIce said:
I don't think any reasonable intelligent person with any sort of common sense has a problem with immigration, it just has to be more tightly controlled. The UK cannot absorb all the problems of the world on its back. Personally I think their are far to many people in the Country that were born and raised here not in work. Until we tackle that problem we will continue to need the number of immigrants we have.
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I think this is a very rational way of looking at it and about right. I worked in recruitment for 12 years until Feb this year (when I had just about had enough). One of the job sectors we were heavily involved in was delivery driving (mainly Large Goods Vehicles / Artic's). Up until about 2003 people could earn a "decent wage" doing what I have always felt is a very important job because many of these men / women are driving huge vehicles with the potential to do serious damage on our roads / motorways (as we often see the accidents in the paper) & so it was always important to pay decent money to attract good sensible drivers to our roads. Needless to say the money still wasn't what I would class as befitting the role but around £9/£10 an hour was the norm.

Fast forward to present day and because immigration hasn't been properly thought about or indeed controlled by our present government. We now have large amounts of immigrants that have basically stepped in (over UK workers) to do the same job for less money in this particular sector. Short sighted companies looking to save a fast buck but in the long run having to deal with more accidents etc on our roads. I know of 6/7 cases in Bristol alone where Polish workers have not had the correct licences but were still employed (with one accident resullting in an unfortunate death).

The wages now are lower than they were 6 years ago (at about £8 / £8.50 per hour) and many drivers (UK drivers that I knew) were /are like fish out of water. Jobs have dried up & they have no idea what they can now go and do because driving was all they knew, it was their life & so many have simply fallen back on the benefits system. To also make matters worse the statistics then state that many immigrant workers send money back to their home country thus taking it from our economy.

Now I have absolutely no issue with immigration at all (providing it is properly controlled). But this little scenario I have just explained is an example of how immmigration has not worked and ruined what was a solid living for many UK workers. Its little wonder far right wing parties like the BNP are now getting a look in because (for example) these drivers that I used to deal with don't look at things subjectively like we do and instead rather than blame the money grabbing companies looking to save a few thousand, they blame the immigrants. But then the immigrants are only looking to earn money to do exactly what we want to do, eat, pay bills, have a house etc etc (so they can't be blamed really).

I honestly don't know what the answer is but for me (as a 28 year old guy) I have always wondered why we are just not a more self sufficient country. Things like our gas, electricity, mobile networks, trains (the list goes on) are all generally owned by foreign countries & if the governnment is so willing to bail out stupid bankers then why over the years haven't they bought these utilities back and created more jobs in the UK.

Likewise with the need for all of us to go green, why don't the government look to part back the undoubted talent on our doorstep (like say McLaren or another car maker) and get them to produce a part government funded new car company that produces eco cars (much like the french government part owns Peugeot / Citroen). This is just one example but there are many other industries that for what the government has just splashed out, could have been bought back or invested in.

But, well my argument mmay not hold water as some of you guys seem far more switched on than I am but as your average joe these are just my feelings and when I read about the strong heritage this country once had. It just depresses me to see us in the state we currrently are and I don't think blaming immmigration is the sole issue here.
 
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Chimerical said:
Myth.



Myth.
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Will be hard to drag any sources but I can 100% give my personal experiences from working in Makro/ASDA during 4 years of Uni. From the many Pakistani colleagues I spoke to, told me how most of their money goes back home to help the family over there. Two guys I worked with in ASDA told me they were the youngest in the family and it was their responsibility to look after the family back over in Pakistan by working here and sending money over.

I have also seen this happen with Polish colleagues, who will work over here for 3-4 months at a time to build up a load of money and then go back home to Poland to study with more money than they would have had by staying in Poland.

My girlfriend is Polish and doesn't send any money home, she spends it all here on living and going out when she can :D My point is from my personal experience more send money home than stay to spend it here.
 
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ColdAsIce said:
My girlfriend is Polish and doesn't send any money home, she spends it all here on living and going out when she can :D My point is from my personal experience more send money home than stay to spend it here.
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And I can give you confirmation that a lot of money doesn't go back seeing as half my family are immigrants. Yes, some does but not really much more than all the tourists who go on holiday every year and spend.

The point is you have no real proof either way, some send a lot home I admit but then there will be an equal amount that don't, especially if their entire family has immigrated and their main house is in Britain.
 
Without a doubt... I know many immigrants that pay their way more so than some of the lasy British workers I have come in to contact with. In fact my Grandad (now 65) is Dutch & moved here when he was 20(ish) and that wasn't me trying to sound Dutch with the ish then ;) lol. But anyway, he has had a highly paid engineering job all his life and has probably paid £20k worth of tax in to the system (or the equivilent given inflation) for 45 years and never sent a penny back (so close to a milllion) as I say taking in to account inflation.

He see's himself as a Brit / Englishman basically so as I said in my rather lengthy thread above, immigration isn't necessarily the problem. Its just about measures & control so that entire industry sectors don't get demolished like say the driving industry has (and to a certain extent warehouse labour / order picking etc)...
 
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