Is Torque Overrated ?

[TW]Fox;15191957 said:
You can do this in a petrol car as well - I never need to shift down on the Motorway when I'm in a rush. They move out the way, accelerate away or use resume on cruise. It is completely true I cannot do this quite as quickly as a 530d and that the 530d has more performance in 5th at 70mph than my car but come on, its not a critical operation, is it? You don't NEED to be able to get back to 90 1.3 seconds quicker, do you? It makes no difference to your journey being able to accelerate back to 90 a second or two quicker on a Motorway trip. The people who do this are probably the people who complain about rubbish fuel consumption from a petrol, well don't drive everywhere with a digital throttle then. It's pointless.
Click to expand...

but 3.0 is larger than than a typical NA petrol engine size, id expect yours to have that bit of extra "go". that 1.3 seconds clearly makes some people feel better, they put their foot down and their car shoves... the car might not necessarily be quick but due to the rate that the torque is increasing, it will feel that way... things like gearing will mean that its probably not that quick at all

in my old golf, the delivery is markedly more "alive" after 4krpm, on a motorway thats 90mph+ so not really practical. to get any shove out of it at 70-75 you want to be in 4th or even better 3rd... and thats just not cool
 
well the difference goes like follows

0-60 went from a timed 6.1 seconds (best of about 15 runs, only managed to repeat that time one other time, so that was about the best it could do standard)

to 5.9 seconds (again best of about 10 runs, not managed to repeat it yet)

And as for the 30-70 in gear time ? it went from about 5.0 seconds to 4.7 seconds

As others have concluded in these threads, i am now also of the oppinion that torque is overrated. And its really all about the BHP, despite what the diesel fanatics say.
 
Matt82 said:
but 3.0 is larger than than a typical NA petrol engine size, id expect yours to have that bit of extra "go". that 1.3 seconds clearly makes some people feel better, they put their foot down and their car shoves... the car might not necessarily be quick but due to the rate that the torque is increasing, it will feel that way... things like gearing will mean that its probably not that quick at all

in my old golf, the delivery is markedly more "alive" after 4krpm, on a motorway thats 90mph+ so not really practical. to get any shove out of it at 70-75 you want to be in 4th or even better 3rd... and thats just not cool
Click to expand...

Exactly. You're not really comparing like for like, are you fox. Most people are in the sub-2.0 litre range, and the difference in 'lazy motorway pulling power' at those capacities in diesel/petrol are significant.
 
MrLOL said:
well the difference goes like follows

0-60 went from a timed 6.1 seconds (best of about 15 runs, only managed to repeat that time one other time, so that was about the best it could do standard)

to 5.9 seconds (again best of about 10 runs, not managed to repeat it yet)

And as for the 30-70 in gear time ? it went from about 5.0 seconds to 4.7 seconds

As others have concluded in these threads, i am now also of the oppinion that torque is overrated. And its really all about the BHP, despite what the diesel fanatics say.
Click to expand...

but but but... fwd are you past the limit of what fwd can put down and show a gain once the power has been increased?

i was putting some times on a mapped a3 turbo a while ago, i got that to 60 in 6.3 eventually, but you have shed loads more power, are you not going faster because you have too much power?
 
MrLOL said:
well the difference goes like follows

0-60 went from a timed 6.1 seconds (best of about 15 runs, only managed to repeat that time one other time, so that was about the best it could do standard)

to 5.9 seconds (again best of about 10 runs, not managed to repeat it yet)

And as for the 30-70 in gear time ? it went from about 5.0 seconds to 4.7 seconds

As others have concluded in these threads, i am now also of the oppinion that torque is overrated. And its really all about the BHP, despite what the diesel fanatics say.
Click to expand...

You gained at least a 3rd of a second - that is a pretty substantial gain?
 
0-60 i wasnt surprised at actually.

i was expecting more from the 30-70 time though.

33% increase in torque, and only a 6 % increase in in gear acceleration.


The car obviously really struggles with wheelspin below 30, but in the dry theres no wheelspin into second on full throttle upshifts so traction shouldnt be too much of a factor.

As others have said, ive only gained 20bhp, which is a 7% increase.

the improvement in 30-70 times seems more related to the 7% power increase, than it does the 30 % torque increase.

Matt82 said:
but but but... fwd are you past the limit of what fwd can put down and show a gain once the power has been increased?

i was putting some times on a mapped a3 turbo a while ago, i got that to 60 in 6.3 eventually, but you have shed loads more power, are you not going faster because you have too much power?
Click to expand...

and shedloads more weight. Remember the iron V6 in the vectra is heavy old lump and the vectra has a 1600kg + kerbweight.

The insignia VXR has a 1800kg kerbweight, almost as much as the fullsize VXR8 !
 
Did you do any 1/4 mile runs? I imagine it would be about half a second quicker and a higher terminal speed, which wouldn't be a bad result really.
 
im not comparing the two cars in anyway performance wise, just that with fwd you get to a threshold where youre just limited with the amount of power youre able to get to the ground.

30-70, surely yours doesnt put 390lbft down cleanly?
 
You need horses to go quicker not torque. A simplification of course, but if you want a quicker car add horses if you want a different/better delivery focus on the torque curve and where it sits in the rev range.
 
I drove a honda Type-R for two years so I'm biased towards BHP :D

Modifications to the Type-R don't add that much power short of chucking FI on them. The mods mainly increase the torque making it more or less equal the bhp but the power now comes in all the way through the revs. That said, my stock EP3 could easily keep up with with one that's remapped to about 240bhp with full breathing mods.

A friend of mine had a full Toda exhaust, K-Pro ECU and ITG closed intake. More or less the best setup before going FI or a forged build of some kind and it felt awesome, but it wasn't much different to my stock EP3 in performance it just changed the way it drove.
 
Housey said:
You need horses to go quicker not torque. A simplification of course, but if you want a quicker car add horses if you want a different/better delivery focus on the torque curve and where it sits in the rev range.
Click to expand...

imagine my golf, 170something bhp, 2.0 petrol, it gets into its stride after about 4krpm

imagine im exiting a tight roundabout and ive got a mk4 diesel golf next to me, 130pd, less bhp but shed loads of torque at the bottom. we both put our foot down and hell just fly off

bhp is great in a drag race. bhp = torque x revs (simplified) afterall so in a dragrace, bhp is what you want, youre only going to be at the top of the revs anyway. torque everywhere is what makes a car fast

you could have a power delivery with no torque at the bottom (lots of turbo lag) and tons of torque at the top (so tons of bhp), but the car that delivers its power sensible is the car id rather be in.

bhp is not everything, its just a number
 
Housey said:
You need horses to go quicker not torque. A simplification of course, but if you want a quicker car add horses if you want a different/better delivery focus on the torque curve and where it sits in the rev range.
Click to expand...

this is the conclusion i've come to

I'll admit, prior to this i was under the impression that adding torque would actually make the car faster rather than change its delivery.
 
Matt82 said:
imagine my golf, 170something bhp, 2.0 petrol, it gets into its stride after about 4krpm

imagine im exiting a tight roundabout and ive got a mk4 diesel golf next to me, 130pd, less bhp but shed loads of torque at the bottom. we both put our foot down and hell just fly off

bhp is great in a drag race. bhp = torque x revs (simplified) afterall so in a dragrace, bhp is what you want, youre only going to be at the top of the revs anyway. torque everywhere is what makes a car fast

you could have a power delivery with no torque at the bottom (lots of turbo lag) and tons of torque at the top (so tons of bhp), but the car that delivers its power sensible is the car id rather be in.

bhp is not everything, its just a number
Click to expand...

If you drive it like a diesel then yes, if you use the extra power of the petrol then no. Torque makes it more accessible not faster as the paper figures more often than not show. Stir the box in a petrol and it will be quicker than the diesel, drive it like a diesel expect to be made to look silly.
 
Ideally you want equal bhp and lb/ft torque.

My car is 250bhp and 260lb/ft.

Just a shame it's fwd and isn't a nice sounding engine.
 
Matt82 said:
im not comparing the two cars in anyway performance wise, just that with fwd you get to a threshold where youre just limited with the amount of power youre able to get to the ground.

30-70, surely yours doesnt put 390lbft down cleanly?
Click to expand...

in a straight line drag race, when theres no steering to done, it never really feels like its struggling for grip past 30. It does in the wet, but in the dry it has all the struggle with the torque as it pulls off, but once it gets moving it pulls quite cleanly with only mild torque steer. Its there, but you could still drive it one handed for example.
 
Matt82 said:
imagine my golf, 170something bhp, 2.0 petrol, it gets into its stride after about 4krpm

imagine im exiting a tight roundabout and ive got a mk4 diesel golf next to me, 130pd, less bhp but shed loads of torque at the bottom. we both put our foot down and hell just fly off

bhp is great in a drag race. bhp = torque x revs (simplified) afterall so in a dragrace, bhp is what you want, youre only going to be at the top of the revs anyway. torque everywhere is what makes a car fast

you could have a power delivery with no torque at the bottom (lots of turbo lag) and tons of torque at the top (so tons of bhp), but the car that delivers its power sensible is the car id rather be in.

bhp is not everything, its just a number
Click to expand...

lucky cars have gears then ;) .... you exit your tight roundabout in the correct gear in the power

bhp is everything if your racing another car, keep the revs up and enjoy some diesel bashing


your way of thinking says a 320D BMW is more fun than a Evo .....it just isnt

peaky big bhp, even with lag = big fun, flat power delivery diesels with a shed load of low down torque are dull and for old people, reps and taxis ;)
 
Last edited:
When I had an interview at Mercedes-Benz HPE I actually asked one of their engineers about this and they stated that at the end of the day, they always develop their engines for maximum horsepower (of course taking into account tractability & reliability issues, however) - he said the rest they sort out through the gearing.......
 
Matt82 said:
imagine my golf, 170something bhp, 2.0 petrol, it gets into its stride after about 4krpm

imagine im exiting a tight roundabout and ive got a mk4 diesel golf next to me, 130pd, less bhp but shed loads of torque at the bottom. we both put our foot down and hell just fly off

bhp is great in a drag race. bhp = torque x revs (simplified) afterall so in a dragrace, bhp is what you want, youre only going to be at the top of the revs anyway. torque everywhere is what makes a car fast

you could have a power delivery with no torque at the bottom (lots of turbo lag) and tons of torque at the top (so tons of bhp), but the car that delivers its power sensible is the car id rather be in.

bhp is not everything, its just a number
Click to expand...

Rubbish!

If you are in the correct gear, i.e at your power peak, then you will leave the diesel for dust.

Yes you have to work a petrol more to get more out of them, but then thats imo how driving should be. Diesels are for vans, tractors and old people.
 
Begbie said:
Rubbish!

If you are in the correct gear, i.e at your power peak, then you will leave the diesel for dust.

Yes you have to work a petrol more to get more out of them, but then thats imo how driving should be. Diesels are for vans, tractors and old people.
Click to expand...

correct, but youd have to be in 1st gear, hardly normal behavour on the road, so talk some sense
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom