Modern car hate club

Freefaller · 11 Dec 2009 at 16:03

[TW]Fox;15506734 said:
Why do some manufacturers torque limit engines in 1st ger if there is no more wear on a car nailing it to the redline in 1st than, say, in 4th?

So they can get away with a less chunky and expensive clutch, or not have to over engineer the drivetrain? I'm just guessing, I don't know.

Janesy B · 11 Dec 2009 at 16:09

Matt82 said:
i still dont get it janesy, ive had loads of slow cars but thats still no excuse not to have a bit of fun in it

I take more pleasure in driving down a nice twisty road at a brisk pace rather than nailing it from traffic light to traffic light.

Jonny69 · 11 Dec 2009 at 16:40

[TW]Fox;15506664 said:
Absolutely nailing it to the redline in 1st gear does no harm at all?

Of course not, thats why many manufacturers torque limit engines in 1st gear, for a laugh.

See, you fools think you're going to blow up your modern cars overnight if you give them some stick. So much for old cars being old and weak

I'll rag mine in any gear any time. Have to tighten some stuff up from time to time but look what I can do that you can't

Dr Who · 11 Dec 2009 at 17:55

My pug got well ragged today, but think the CV joints have gone

Lopéz · 11 Dec 2009 at 18:00

Manta gets full bore launches out of about 4 different junctions on the way to work. Not broken anything (yet)

Joshy · 11 Dec 2009 at 18:09

[TW]Fox;15506734 said:
Why do some manufacturers torque limit engines in 1st ger if there is no more wear on a car nailing it to the redline in 1st than, say, in 4th?

As far as I'm aware it has nothing to do with wear and everything to do with preventing wheel spin. Remember in a low gear engine Torque is multiplied by a great amount via the gearbox, and all of this Torque is used 'incorrectly', it'll easy exceed the grip offered by the tyres, in a higher gear less torque is available so this isn't so much of a problem.

I don't buy this wear argument for one second. The gear for first isn't made out of a brittle material, so it doesn't harm the gearbox. A clutch isn't going to care because as soon as it is engaged it is business as usual.

Anyway going near the limiter isn't what you have to be worried about when doing a first gear launch. It is that initial loading of Torque through drivetrain components without any 'slip' that lunches things. That's why high power 4WD cars on sticky tyres usually find the drivetrains going boom. This is how I justified the transmission issues with Launch control on the GTR to myself. Load 414FT LBS multiplied by lord knows how much through the gearbox onto 4 wheels wearing sticky tyres at precisely the right RPM to cause zero 'slip' and something is going to eventually give. It's not the "OMG, High RPMs in first" that killed them.

Perywinkle · 11 Dec 2009 at 18:11

Lopéz said:
Manta gets full bore launches out of about 4 different junctions on the way to work. Not broken anything (yet)

Mine just lights up the wheel, or if I get a perfect launch the clutch slips and you get that lovely smell in the cabin

Think it'll defo need a clutch upgarde when I stick the bike carbs and lsd in.

Dr Who · 11 Dec 2009 at 18:32

Lopéz said:
Manta gets full bore launches out of about 4 different junctions on the way to work. Not broken anything (yet)

I think mine had tired shafts, and the 250 mile round trip ragging it exposed said weakness

[TW]Fox · 11 Dec 2009 at 18:33

Freefaller said:
So they can get away with a less chunky and expensive clutch, or not have to over engineer the drivetrain? I'm just guessing, I don't know.

But these guys are arguing it puts no extra strain on the car than doing it, in say, 4th, so why would the drivetrain need overengineering?

Lopéz · 11 Dec 2009 at 18:34

Dr Who said:
I think mine had tired shafts, and the 250 mile round trip ragging it exposed said weakness

205 shafts are a known weakness to be fair, even standard it's surprisingly easy to pop one out wheelspinning on full lock.

MikeHunt79 · 11 Dec 2009 at 18:36

Sone said:
it has reliable fuel injection, makes it modern to me

That's the first time I've heard someone describes the 205's fuel injection as reliable!

Dr WHo: That's a great example, rare to see a standard one these days :cool:

"andy" · 11 Dec 2009 at 18:37

id like to join your club

Biohazard · 11 Dec 2009 at 18:38

[TW]Fox;15507741 said:
But these guys are arguing it puts no extra strain on the car than doing it, in say, 4th, so why would the drivetrain need overengineering?

These 'guys' are right btw. there is no difference between gunning it on gears.

I also join the club.

[TW]Fox · 11 Dec 2009 at 18:39

So launching hard in first gear puts no wear on the gearbox/transmission/anything else in the car?

Just seems a bit wrong to me but I guess I'll bow to your better knowledge.

Best you let Ford know as well as they've been wasting their time torque limiting the ST TDCi's in 1st and 2nd to protect the drivetrain, obviously there is no real need for them to do this.

Joshy · 11 Dec 2009 at 19:00

[TW]Fox;15507779 said:
So launching hard in first gear puts no wear on the gearbox/transmission/anything else in the car?

Just seems a bit wrong to me but I guess I'll bow to your better knowledge.

Best you let Ford know as well as they've been wasting their time torque limiting the ST TDCi's in 1st and 2nd to protect the drivetrain, obviously there is no real need for them to do this.

Did you read any of my post?

Other than the initial force caused by loading the drivetrain with high amounts of Torque from an absolute standstill, I can't see any damage being caused.

And where's the proof that Ford specifically limit Torque to protect the drivetrain?

Freefaller · 11 Dec 2009 at 19:02

I guess it is to limit the chances of breaking traction then as they alluded to and saves on overloading the traction control system (which is electronic so no wear and tear there) and makes driving easier?

Captain_Slick · 11 Dec 2009 at 19:06

Joshy said:
Did you read any of my post?

Clearly he did, since he's making the exact same point that you are. Too much torque in first gear WILL damage the drivetrain.

Begbie · 11 Dec 2009 at 19:17

[TW]Fox;15507779 said:
So launching hard in first gear puts no wear on the gearbox/transmission/anything else in the car?

Just seems a bit wrong to me but I guess I'll bow to your better knowledge.

Best you let Ford know as well as they've been wasting their time torque limiting the ST TDCi's in 1st and 2nd to protect the drivetrain, obviously there is no real need for them to do this.

Booting your car is going to cause damage, its fact.

Its taking this into consideration and being a sympathetic to your car. On the twistys I will boot it away in first and carry it on. (If safe to do so etc etc)

Joshy · 11 Dec 2009 at 19:22

Captain_Slick said:
Clearly he did, since he's making the exact same point that you are. Too much torque in first gear WILL damage the drivetrain.

He's not really? :confused:

I'm suggesting that it is the initial force of a high amount of Torque being applied through a drivetrain without any 'slip' from the tyres is what will kill a drivetrain during a hard launch. Once rolling, I'm struggling to don't see how going from 2,000RPM to 7,000RPM in first is much different from doing it in 4th (tyres). Yes in first you'll far more Torque transferred to components after the gearbox, but your drivetrain should be 'over-engineered' to deal with this easily.

[TW]Fox · 11 Dec 2009 at 19:42

Joshy said:
Other than the initial force caused by loading the drivetrain with high amounts of Torque from an absolute standstill

Errr which is exactly what I am talking about!

Modern car hate club

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