Homeowner fights off knife-wielding burglars, gets 30 months; burglar spared jail

[scorza]

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/householders.html

Even the CPS's own advice on what is reasonable force is confusing as hell.

Does the law protect me? What is 'reasonable force'?

Anyone can use reasonable force to protect themselves or others, or to carry out an arrest or to prevent crime. You are not expected to make fine judgements over the level of force you use in the heat of the moment. So long as you only do what you honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment, that would be the strongest evidence of you acting lawfully and in selfdefence. This is still the case if you use something to hand as a weapon.

As a general rule, the more extreme the circumstances and the fear felt, the more force you can lawfully use in self-defence.

Ok, so we aren't expected to make fine judgements on what is reasonable force in the heat of the moment, we can even use weapons if they are to hand. I agree 100%. Mr Hussain was certainly put in a very extreme circumstance as well.

What if I chase them as they run off?

This situation is different as you are no longer acting in self-defence and so the same degree of force may not be reasonable. However, you are still allowed to use reasonable force to recover your property and make a citizen's arrest. You should consider your own safety and, for example, whether the police have been called. A rugby tackle or a single blow would probably be reasonable. Acting out of malice and revenge with the intent of inflicting punishment through injury or death would not.

So now we are expected to make a fine judgement in the heat of the moment. I'm allowed to use reasonable force in self defence, but if they run off I'm still allowed to use reasonable force, but what is reasonable force differs between the two to some extent.

We are allowed to chase down burglars, but presumably we have to remember (in the heat of the moment) to throw away those weapons we had to hand, and if we catch them we can punch them once, but no more or it's the slammer for us.

Clear as mud, I'd be better off using the Chewbacca defence.

 

[[TW]Fox]

slightly different really as being in the garden isn't an immediate threat to you or your family.

Neither is running down the street in High Wycombe..

 

[The IPB]

The issue is all the extra Prison space we require and the cost of feeding the idiots, I wonder do prisons grow their own produce, if not they should implement that prisoners grow their own damn food.

 

[Yas786]

He got brain damage, hopefully that'll be a lesson to his friends that they best give up their criminal ways - one can only hope.

It obviously didnt work as hes up for a credit card fraud charge...committed as soon as he left the hospital

 

[Rich_L]

Or, if a bystander is pleading with you to stop...stop?

It's usually a good indicator you are acting unreasonably if the above is happening.

 

[Manlove is my forte]

Would you guys support me if I beat some guy to death after I saw him climbing into the garden?

Devils advocate obviously, point being, where do you draw the line?

Depends if he was carrying the necessary equipment to do harm to your property or your family.

If you shouted at him (I think "OI!" is normal territorial invasion protocol) and he turns and flees then, let him go. If he shouts back "Your money or your life" then he is clearly fair game.

 

[Glaucus]

Snip

it really isn't that complicated.

if you are being threaten = use reasonable force which is pretty much anything as long as you feel directly threatened.

Once they run of you are under no threat and as such can't use self defence.
however you can use reasonable force to restrain them, which is nothing like self defence force.

 

[Spie]

They don't. This did not happen in the house or at the time. If that was the case there would be no charge.

It is the fact that it was not self-defence. he went and got his mates, armed up and went and found this guy once he had run away.

Well done that man. The burglar deserved it.

Don't break into houses armed with knives and you won't get beaten up by the home owner.

 

[Glaucus]

Well done that man. The burglar deserved it.

Don't break into houses armed with knives and you won't get beaten up by the home owner.

So you support revenge attacks? how long after the incident, is it ok to hunt someone down hours/days/months/years after the event and deliver your own justice what ever you feel is ok.

 

[4Play]

It actually shocks me to find so many people saying that he should be put into jail. People keep saying he went to far so yeh he should get put into prison. How about the robbers went to far when wielding a knife and saying they was going to kill you ? Half the people on here need to wake up and realise that our system is walked over by everyone it seeks to prevent from doing so. If Mr Hussaine got 20 months so should the burglar. Next time hit him a bit harder with it.

 

[4Play]

So you support revenge attacks? how long after the incident, is it ok to hunt someone down hours/days/months/years after the event and deliver your own justice what ever you feel is ok.

Provocation = no cooling off period there was not one, he chased him down fuelled by adrenaline and threat to his and his families life.

 

[cotton_flex]

If my family got threatened like that then I won't hessitate to split a bat on their head either.

 

[Manlove is my forte]

Neither is running down the street in High Wycombe..

Having lived in High Wycombe for over 15 years I can tell you that running down Desborough Road in the night is a risk no one should take and if you have committed a crime on that road against the residents of that road, you had best be an Olympic class runner or you will be ****ed as this case shows. If a respected business man can and will inflict this kind of attack, imagine what the less morally upstanding residents would have done and Everyone in Wycombe knows this is the case with Desborough.

 

[Glaucus]

It actually shocks me to find so many people saying that he should be put into jail. People keep saying he went to far so yeh he should get put into prison.

You can not allow or legalise revenge attacks. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. you can not take the law into your own hands. As such the law takes a very dim view and zero tolerance for vigilante justice.

How about the robbers went to far when wielding a knife and saying they was going to kill you ? .

Who's saying he didn't go to far? who's saying he should not be punished? who's saying they sympathise with him?

 

[Yas786]

Or, if a bystander is pleading with you to stop...stop?

It's usually a good indicator you are acting unreasonably if the above is happening.

That i agree with....if someone is saying to me look please stop your going to kill him then id probably stop and let the police deal with him but id make damn sure that his arms and legs were properly broken before stopping.

Now if the police and the justice system in this joke of a country stopped being so damn PC about criminals rights etc etc then perhaps this country would be in a bit of a better state than what it is now ie criminals and gangs running riot all over the place.

 

[Raikiri]

It actually shocks me to find so many people saying that he should be put into jail.

He broke the law, he should be in jail. Were it not for the situation in which it happened it would have been a lot longer.

People keep saying he went to far so yeh he should get put into prison. How about the robbers went to far when wielding a knife and saying they was going to kill you ?

They should also be in jail, the one they caught probably would be had they not beat him to a point he wasn't fit to plea.

 

[Spie]

So you support revenge attacks? how long after the incident, is it ok to hunt someone down hours/days/months/years after the event and deliver your own justice what ever you feel is ok.

It wasn't hours/days/months/years after. It was all part of the same incident.

The incident occurred when the Hussain family returned from their mosque during Ramadan to find three intruders wearing balaclavas in their home. Hussain was told that he would be killed. His family’s hands were tied behind their backs and they were forced to crawl from room to room.Hussain, 53, made an escape after throwing a coffee table and enlisted his brother Tokeer, 35, in chasing the offenders down the street in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, bringing one of them to the ground.

What happened afterwards was fully justified and deserved. Anyone who ties a family up at knifepoint and tells them they are going to be killed deserves a damn good kicking, at a minimum.

 

[4Play]

To me its kind of obvious half of the people on here have never been involved in something like this. Adrenaline changes a person, the minuite your life is in danger its kill or be killed and nothing is rationalised. The jury obviously did not look at it like this. I would place the robber into prison for 10 years and give the man a medal. 50 previous convictions says enough, shame the law of bad character is the way it is huh.

 

[Glaucus]

It wasn't hours/days/months/years after. It was all part of the same incident.

Not really as there was no threat and as such no self defence, the incident had ended, he was not in the house, not anywhere near him or his family, not even on his property. You still have a lot of rights though.

 

[Rich_L]

Frankly it would never happen in America

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/411698_northgate30.html

A Seattle man who shot a car prowler in the back of the head and killed him was sentenced to 9 months in jail on Friday.

The sentence and an earlier guilty plea were part of a deal reached with prosecutors.

Filing a second-degree manslaughter charge in September, King County prosecutors alleged that Douglas Cameron Sheets acted with criminal negligence when he shot Jhovany Hernandez outside his Northgate home. According to court filings, police came to believe that Sheets shot Hernandez as the 21-year-old fled