Poll: Which party will get your vote in the General Election?

[Hatter The Mad]

I don't think those things have happened in the last thirteen years, and I'm confident that the only credible alternative in the upcoming elections will perform worse by those criteria (which are some of the criteria I prioritise most highly, especially income equality) than Labour will.

Well, what you "think" hasn't happened doesn't tally with reality.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/...n-class-general-election?showallcomments=true

• When three-year olds are assessed on a measure of their school readiness, those from the poorest 20% of the population on average score only half as well as those from the richest 20%.

• Children who are eligible for free school meals do significantly less well at school at every stage. At key stage 4, only 27% of them got good GCSE passes last year, compared with 54% of those who were not eligible for free meals.

• Only 4% of children receiving free school meals at age 15 went on to higher education, compared with 33% of those who were not eligible.

• Average life expectancy in the most affluent areas of the country is around 13 years longer than in the poorest areas. Men in the richest 20% of the population are four times more likely to be members of an occupational pension scheme, with the financial security that goes with it, than those from the poorest 20%.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/jan/15/teachers-voting-labour-conservatives

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...s-to-record-levels-official-figures-show.html

The number of children living in poverty rose by 100,000, the data showed, confirming Labour's failure to meet a promise to cut child poverty.

The Department of Work and Pensions yesterday released income data for 2007/08, the last full financial year before the UK economy went into recession.

The data showed that while incomes for the better-off grew only slowly, they still increased more quickly than those of the poorest.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

writing here (Tories, better healthcare? No-one would believe that - the tories don't even state it)

What do you have to back up your notion that the Tories would not deliver 'better' health care? Personally I don't know if they will, but I know they'll try to deliver it more efficiently and without the MASSIVE bureaucracy that sits behind it.

 

[britboy4321]

Well, what you "think" hasn't happened doesn't tally with reality.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/...n-class-general-election?showallcomments=true



http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/jan/15/teachers-voting-labour-conservatives

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...s-to-record-levels-official-figures-show.html

Your insinuating this is worse than when the tories were in.

Is this one of your 'meant' insinuations, or one of your 'pretend' insinuations that you don't really mean? It's heard to tell.

 

[Dolph]

I don't think those things have happened in the last thirteen years, and I'm confident that the only credible alternative in the upcoming elections will perform worse by those criteria (which are some of the criteria I prioritise most highly, especially income equality) than Labour will.

You don't think these things have been happening, do I have to dig up the evidence (which has been posted previously in this thread) from the state's own sources (eg the ONS)?

 

[britboy4321]

What do you have to back up your notion that the Tories would not deliver 'better' health care?

Actually it was YOUR notion that they would deliver better healthcare - remember?


Or was this a 'pretend insinuation that you didn't really mean honest' thing again? Can't you tag them with a smiley or something so we know when you're 'only joking/insinuating/estimating/pretending/assuming'?? As you seem to do it an awful lot when your 'facts' are proven wrong.

I can't tell when what you write is only you 'pretending' or something. So I call you on it, then you go 'Duh -- it was obvious what I actually really meant'. Surely we can't proceed like this?

 

[britboy4321]

You don't think these things have been happening, do I have to dig up the evidence (which has been posted previously in this thread) from the state's own sources (eg the ONS)?

The idea the NHS is delivering a worse service than under the tories is absolutely laughable.

You kids are too young to remember the 'waiting lists' problems that Labour wiped out. And Hatter says we're not allowed to talk about the tories last term, only Labours last term is allowed to be discussed

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Your insinuating this is worse than when the tories were in.

Is this one of your 'meant' insinuations, or one of your 'pretend' insinuations that you don't really mean? It's heard to tell.

It is worse. Note the use of the phrase "record levels" in that article.

 

[Dolph]

Your insinuating this is worse than when the tories were in.

Is this one of your 'meant' insinuations, or one of your 'pretend' insinuations that you don't really mean? It's heard to tell.

They generally are...

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/equality/oecd-pours-scorn-on-social-mobility-record-$1245699.htm

Child poverty rates are above the levels seen in the mid-1980s, despite having fallen between the mid-1990s and 2005.

And the number of people living alone or in single-parent households has increased, with the average household size falling from 2.4 to 2.1 in the same period.

Just as an example.

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/social_sciences/report-100121.html

As another.

Social mobility has been poor under both the Tories and Labour, but there is certainly no evidence of it being worse under the Tories than under the recent labour government, and at least some evidence to suggest that it is worse under Labour, especially on some metrics.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

The idea the NHS is delivering a worse service than under the tories is absolutely laughable.

I agree in some respects it is much better, but execution has been poor. NHS management has doubled by 100% over the last decade, but front-line staff by only 40%. Why?

Hospital bourne infection rates are up. Malnutrition is up. Standard of cleaning is down (due to it being outsourced). You are 20% more likely to die from cancer or a stroke here in the UK than in Europe (i.e. France).

 

[Fuzz]

Lib dems for me.

Pretty strong support round these parts already

 

[britboy4321]

I agree in some respects it is much better, but execution has been poor. NHS management has doubled by 100% over the last decade, but front-line staff by only 40%. Why?

Hospital bourne infection rates are up. Malnutrition is up. Standard of cleaning is down (due to it being outsourced). You are 20% more likely to die from cancer or a stroke here in the UK than in Europe (i.e. France).

Yes obviously it hasn't all uniformally got exactly identically better. But your argument is like if I spent £100,000 on a car to replace my rubbish Mazda - and you state 'OMG the new Ferrari hasn't got a multi-cd changer, the Mazda did have. Therefore I deduce Jees - we've gone backwards - the new car IS WORSE -- Nightmare.'.

Bad logic. Or more specifically, anecdotal evidence leading to flawed conclusions.

 

[Dolph]

The idea the NHS is delivering a worse service than under the tories is absolutely laughable.

The idea that it is delivering a good, efficient, value for money service now is also laughable. The ONS are clearly reporting otherwise.

You kids are too young to remember the 'waiting lists' problems that Labour wiped out. And Hatter says we're not allowed to talk about the tories last term, only Labours last term is allowed to be discussed

Lol, I think I'm a bit old to be called a kid

As for the waiting list problem, it hasn't really gone away, it's just been moved around....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2818655.stm
http://www.careworld.net/Articles/q302/sept/NHS waiting list fiddles.htm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/senior-staff-fiddled-nhs-waiting-list-1114681.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...d-fiddling-of-NHS-waiting-lists-revealed.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/parliament-health-labour-accused-of-fiddling-figures-1083023.html

And for a final damning link from 2008 (just to prove it is not an old problem).

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...t-waiting-times-rise-under-labour-791334.html

Patients are waiting longer on average for NHS treatment than they were in 1997, despite the billions of pounds poured into the health service since Labour came to power.

The NHS figures come as an embarrassing setback for the Government, which has claimed success in reducing very long waits for patients by pumping more money into the NHS and hiring more doctors and nurses.

The Government has succeeded in ending waiting times of 18 months, but overall the average time patients wait for an operation has risen from 41 days in 1997-98 to 49 days last year.

...

Doctors' leaders claimed the rise in average waiting times was another example of healthcare being distorted by government targets. "All that has happened is that the Government has put an end to the really long waits and the really short waits," said Jonathan Fielden, chairman of the British Medical Association's consultants committee. "Doctors have been stopped from using their clinical judgement and pushing people through the system when they need to be. Of course, it is good that the really long waits have gone, but it is wrong to say that all patient care has improved because of shorter waits."

The only thing Labour have done is the same thing socialist thinking always does, ensures everyone gets the same mediocre level of care rather than some get handled quickly and others don't based on clinical need.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Yes obviously it hasn't all uniformally got exactly identically better. But your argument is like if I spent £100,000 on a car to replace my rubbish Mazda - an argument stating 'OMG the new Ferrari hasn't got a multi-cd changer, the Mazda did have. Therefore I deduce Jees - we've gone backwards - the new car IS WORSE'.

Bad logic. Or more specifically, anecdotal evidence.

Bad example.

A more accurate one would be - "We only need to get from A to B. Lets buy a Ferrari to do it" - when a Ford Fiesta will do.

All these managers, less people to manage, a lot of wasted cash.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Bad logic. Or more specifically, anecdotal evidence leading to flawed conclusions.

Goodness me, you're one to talk!

 

[britboy4321]

Bad example.

A more accurate one would be - "We only need to get from A to B. Lets buy a Ferrari to do it" - when a Ford Fiesta will do.

Opinion. An opinion you're not likely to continue having when you've got a slipped disc with a trapped nerve in it (that is, of course, very painful), and they ain't got the staff to sort it out for 8 months because 'that service will do ..., and the perfectly healthy, doing fine, well off families really deserve a tax break don't you know?

 

[Hatter The Mad]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8481588.stm

I wonder if britboy still thinks the inquiry is unnecessary and a waste of money. We're hearing new things about our 'leaders' every day.

 

[Moredhel]

I do care, however there are no parties that represent me, so I won't be voting.

 

[Dolph]

Yet more evidence that social inequality has completely failed to be tackled by Labour...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8481534.stm

It is certainly worth noting where the last drop in the equality gap is and who was governing the country at the time...

 

[Rich_L]

Yeah, worth noting when it jumped 50% in 5 years too and who was governing the country at the time..

Wonder if Cameron will mention that in his next 'broken Britain' speech?

 

[Dolph]

Yeah, worth noting when it jumped 50% in 5 years too and who was governing the country at the time..

Wonder if Cameron will mention that in his next 'broken Britain' speech?

I guess it depends whether you think Cameron is going to be like Thatcher or Major then, and whether previous years were artificially low due to inappropriate pay/employment levels within certain economic groups or shifts between economic groups that caused the effect to be sudden and dramatic rather than the normal gradual but consistent rise that could have been expected had certain industries not been unnecessarily supported in their failed models...