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The [[Offical]] ATI vs NVIDIA thread
- Thread starter dangerstat
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It doesn't pay to get too picky about businesses and ethics... look too closely at 99% of businesses and you wouldn't want to deal with them either...
While that may be true, nVidia's actions have been greatly highlighted and are in the "spotlight" very often.
nVidia are morally poor in terms of "public" perception, ATi are morally good.
For all we know, ATi COULD be far worse than nVidia, but we simply don't know as we're just seeing what's on the surface.
Your yourself even think nVidia are simply not doing themselves many favours.
The weirdest thing is that nearly all the mess ups they've had in the last 2 years+ are things that make very very poor business sense.
Generally speaking, it MIGHT not pay to be picky, however for the last 2-3 years, ATi have had nVidia beat on price to performance ratio which has either forced nVidia to drop their prices or suffer dropping sales as people aren't going to buy a GTX260 192 when a 4870 is just as fast and costs borderline half the amount.
Realistically, I don't actually "prefer" ATi, just currently, I'd rather not buy nVidia products as I see it as me supporting their actions (however insignificant amount it may be).
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This is so true, on more than one occasion in this sub forum I've been called an ATi fanboy, yet the last ATi card I owned was a Rage Fury Maxx!!!!
I've never understood all this brand loyalty crap, it makes no sense to me whatosever...
I buy what I think is the best performing card for the money I'm willing to spend, I currently have a GTX280, I got it at the beginning of last year out of the Clearance Lines section here for a nice price, when I do decide to upgrade again if ATi have the best performing card in my price bracket then I will go for one of those, it's really that simple for me..
I used to have a preference for Nvidia (better drivers and better hardware pre ati 9xxx series). They supported open platforms better too, which I appreciated.
And then it began....(Expect this to be long)
My problems started with an Nforce 3 board I owned which I kept having blue screen issues with intermittently for years, tried swapping out every single component and couldn't work it out; randomly I was trying out a Linux server set up I had planned for the new media center I was building at the time then it happened, a kernel panic based on HDD access timing out. Luckily Linux actually logs important information (I got an Nvidia graphics driver error when windows bluescreened). I know, wtf, right?
It turned out to be an issue with the SATA controller (yeah, no wonder I was thrown off) I delved deeper and eventually found it was a design flaw of the main sata controller on NF3 boards. The board I owned was the DFI Lanparty NF3 250gb ultra or something, the best board for tweaking/ocing at the time). They deny returns for this issue stating that it is a design flaw (surely this makes it worse?). I was not happy. So I thought, okay, I'll use a PCI SATA card this issue was worked around finally.
But wait! More problems ahead!
I purchased a Tyan ATI 9xxx card. All was fine until I started trying to oc (yep possibly all my fault) somewhere along the way barely increasing the clocks at all it fried itself. Sent it back and got a refund. Looking for a new card I chose the FX 5900 (yes I got it for 1/2 the price of the comparable ATI cards and ATI drivers were still "meh", opengl stack also sucked, wasn't impressed by the ATI card failing so easily etc). I immediately started having horrendous driver issues and I never solved them.
I later upgraded the pc and ended up with a 7800. There was a driver with it that was fine but after one driver upgrade (can't place which one) I was unable to find the driver that worked with it again. I again ended up suffering from constant driver issues causing blue screens. At one point I tired 50 different driver versions over a few weeks. Never solved the issue.
By this point ATI had re-written their opengl stack and AMD had started releasing hardware specs for their ATI cards where Nvidia refused. Open 3d Linux drivers are available for ATI cards R300-R700 (I have to use Linux for work).
I was pretty damn tired of the driver issues I had since forceware drivers moved in, on various cards. Picked up a 4870x2 my friend was upgrading from on the cheap. This was only ATI I had used for any period of time and It was the best experience I have had from a graphics card. Fast, cheap, reliable.
Since these experiences all performance being the same I would side with ATI simply for the drivers. I have had too many issues. Maybe I was just unlucky; I accept that statistics of a small number are not representative however I also know at least 7 people (several of whom have been having some pretty bad driver issues too) that had 8800s destroy themselves and hearing about that from people I trust only confirms to me I made a good decision going with ATI this time.
The latest fermi debacle again confirms my stance. I really do hope we get some competition back but for the various reasons listed above I'm pretty happy on the ATI side with not a single graphics related crash since I installed it.
Edit: For anyone interested those "Nvidia driver issues" I had did not effect any of my Linux installations at any point (despite the driver being 95% the same as the windows driver). I cannot explain this, I had reinstalled and tried too many different versions to even remember.
And then it began....(Expect this to be long)
My problems started with an Nforce 3 board I owned which I kept having blue screen issues with intermittently for years, tried swapping out every single component and couldn't work it out; randomly I was trying out a Linux server set up I had planned for the new media center I was building at the time then it happened, a kernel panic based on HDD access timing out. Luckily Linux actually logs important information (I got an Nvidia graphics driver error when windows bluescreened). I know, wtf, right?
It turned out to be an issue with the SATA controller (yeah, no wonder I was thrown off) I delved deeper and eventually found it was a design flaw of the main sata controller on NF3 boards. The board I owned was the DFI Lanparty NF3 250gb ultra or something, the best board for tweaking/ocing at the time). They deny returns for this issue stating that it is a design flaw (surely this makes it worse?). I was not happy. So I thought, okay, I'll use a PCI SATA card this issue was worked around finally.
But wait! More problems ahead!
I purchased a Tyan ATI 9xxx card. All was fine until I started trying to oc (yep possibly all my fault) somewhere along the way barely increasing the clocks at all it fried itself. Sent it back and got a refund. Looking for a new card I chose the FX 5900 (yes I got it for 1/2 the price of the comparable ATI cards and ATI drivers were still "meh", opengl stack also sucked, wasn't impressed by the ATI card failing so easily etc). I immediately started having horrendous driver issues and I never solved them.
I later upgraded the pc and ended up with a 7800. There was a driver with it that was fine but after one driver upgrade (can't place which one) I was unable to find the driver that worked with it again. I again ended up suffering from constant driver issues causing blue screens. At one point I tired 50 different driver versions over a few weeks. Never solved the issue.
By this point ATI had re-written their opengl stack and AMD had started releasing hardware specs for their ATI cards where Nvidia refused. Open 3d Linux drivers are available for ATI cards R300-R700 (I have to use Linux for work).
I was pretty damn tired of the driver issues I had since forceware drivers moved in, on various cards. Picked up a 4870x2 my friend was upgrading from on the cheap. This was only ATI I had used for any period of time and It was the best experience I have had from a graphics card. Fast, cheap, reliable.
Since these experiences all performance being the same I would side with ATI simply for the drivers. I have had too many issues. Maybe I was just unlucky; I accept that statistics of a small number are not representative however I also know at least 7 people (several of whom have been having some pretty bad driver issues too) that had 8800s destroy themselves and hearing about that from people I trust only confirms to me I made a good decision going with ATI this time.
The latest fermi debacle again confirms my stance. I really do hope we get some competition back but for the various reasons listed above I'm pretty happy on the ATI side with not a single graphics related crash since I installed it.
Edit: For anyone interested those "Nvidia driver issues" I had did not effect any of my Linux installations at any point (despite the driver being 95% the same as the windows driver). I cannot explain this, I had reinstalled and tried too many different versions to even remember.
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nVidia GPU drivers - possibly due to the real time dependancies - are often the first point of failure for low level system problems - made worse I think by the poor windows kernel.
Yeah later on (Vista/7) they changed the graphics subsystem because so many blue screens (50-60% of all) were "supposedly" caused by with Nvidia (and to a lesser extent ATI) drivers. I am to this day unsure who exactly is to blame for this or if the issue was ever the actual drivers themselves; outside of working for Microsoft I'm not sure you could ever find out.
Makes me wonder who was really to blame for the Nvidia / Microsoft driver issues with Vista too. Tbh, these days, my patience is so low for this ****. I just want it to work; I think if I got another experience like that with any card I would just return it - Life is too short.
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Started off with a Geforce 4200 Ti 64mb if i remember correctly 
, great little card, i honestly do not remember that chip crashing once.
Upgraded to a Geforce 5950 Ultra, that was awesome but it eventually fried about a year and some later, to this day i have no idea why, i got these graphical coloured two dimensional boxes appear, along with a freeze, then a BSOD.
By this time i had brought my current card, the great price performance ratio Geforce 8800 GT (oc), it runs everything, but i i randomly crashed on certain games since i got the card.
My younger brother brought the same model at the same time as me, and he gets the same problem, it was the same problem i had with the 5950 Ultra it seems, maybe we got a bad batch, who knows.
Performance wise, i've always been happy with geforce, but i guess i can't amend Nvidia's stability, ain't had much to do with Radeon, but i would choose Price Performance Ratio over a specific brand any day of the week.
, great little card, i honestly do not remember that chip crashing once.Upgraded to a Geforce 5950 Ultra, that was awesome but it eventually fried about a year and some later, to this day i have no idea why, i got these graphical coloured two dimensional boxes appear, along with a freeze, then a BSOD.
By this time i had brought my current card, the great price performance ratio Geforce 8800 GT (oc), it runs everything, but i i randomly crashed on certain games since i got the card.
My younger brother brought the same model at the same time as me, and he gets the same problem, it was the same problem i had with the 5950 Ultra it seems, maybe we got a bad batch, who knows.
Performance wise, i've always been happy with geforce, but i guess i can't amend Nvidia's stability, ain't had much to do with Radeon, but i would choose Price Performance Ratio over a specific brand any day of the week.
Started off with a Geforce 4200 Ti 64mb if i remember correctly
I had the 128mb version but a lot of people said the 64mb one was faster, still have it and it still work even though its fan is dead lol. the fan died from all the dust over the years. I remember overclocking it and reading about lapping its core, and i did it completely wrong and yet it works still lol. video cards dont seem the same these days you can overclock 100 mhz out of them sometimes and its like so what. and back then 25 mhz was like wow this thing is flying.
I bet modern video cards will not last this long especially with a faild fan because they hare so big with so much crap to go wrong lol
Hahaha, i think mine is hidden away somewhere, and i think it works perfectly, i was about 13 when i got it, and had no idea how to overclock as it was my first system.
I agree, the old ones seemed to last and it was funny overclocking "once i knew how", i tried to overclock my amd athlon 2200 1.8ghz that was a laugh.
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In my opinion:
ATI = Raw POWER! If you want extreme framerates, go for the high 5000's series which remains unmatched, and I'm guessing the 5970 is even faster than fermi. The amount of transistors, clocks, FLOPS, etc are all higher on the ATI cards. The ratio of price to performance is also around 40% better (calculated a few weeks ago using FLOPS, 3dmark score, and price in Germany as reference).
NVidia = Support, good drivers, good image quality, CUDA, 3d. Nvidia packs the punch with their accessories and IQ. They have better mipmapping, better antialiasing, better filtering techniques than the high end ATI cards by far, yet suffer from a lot less performance. If you can afford 2 or even 3 high end Nvidia cards, go for them!
In the end it comes down to preference. My personal preference is performance over IQ, so I go with the slightly cheaper and faster ATI cards. (I did use NVidia until now though, first a GeForce 4200 and then a GeForce 7600 GT until this)
ATI = Raw POWER! If you want extreme framerates, go for the high 5000's series which remains unmatched, and I'm guessing the 5970 is even faster than fermi. The amount of transistors, clocks, FLOPS, etc are all higher on the ATI cards. The ratio of price to performance is also around 40% better (calculated a few weeks ago using FLOPS, 3dmark score, and price in Germany as reference).
NVidia = Support, good drivers, good image quality, CUDA, 3d. Nvidia packs the punch with their accessories and IQ. They have better mipmapping, better antialiasing, better filtering techniques than the high end ATI cards by far, yet suffer from a lot less performance. If you can afford 2 or even 3 high end Nvidia cards, go for them!
In the end it comes down to preference. My personal preference is performance over IQ, so I go with the slightly cheaper and faster ATI cards. (I did use NVidia until now though, first a GeForce 4200 and then a GeForce 7600 GT until this)
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I think it might date back to when we lived in small tribes. If traders were loyal to each other, they stood to gain from trust (i.e. You wouldn't rip-off someone you know) & stable/higher incomes (Attractive to high value mates i.e. as in girls) etc so were more likely to have more offspring and better look after them.
It's just a natural yet outdated phenomenon, although saying that aspects of that behaviour maybe applicable to the members market etc.
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I have had both ATi and Nvidia cards in my machines, when building a new one I tend to ask on here for what is the best performance for my budget, basically it does not matter if its ATi or Nvidia, best card for budget is what i go for.
I've got to say hand on heart that post 5xxx series release I now think Nvidia just shades it in terms of quality hardware and software.
Of course I buy the best bang for the buck but I think with the 5xxx series there has been more than average numbers of problems with both the hardware and drivers on ATI's side for a new release.
I'm just wondering if this is down to no competition so we are seeing a slanted view, perhaps if we had Nvidia new product then there would be equal numbers on both sides complaining in the forums.
Of course I buy the best bang for the buck but I think with the 5xxx series there has been more than average numbers of problems with both the hardware and drivers on ATI's side for a new release.
I'm just wondering if this is down to no competition so we are seeing a slanted view, perhaps if we had Nvidia new product then there would be equal numbers on both sides complaining in the forums.
I thought IQ was better on Ati???
Well I'm surprised that the thread hasn't degenerated into the usual bickering that i think we all expected, but I'm pleased it hasn't anyway to add something constructive....
on the best bang per buck stakes, at the moment (especially going by OCUK prices) i really don't think the ATI4890 is that good a deal anymore %33 more or even %50 more if you looking at cards actually in stock over the ATI4870 for £100 and thats even the vapour X edition with the better cooler.
the ATI 5770 at £117 is a good deal but you cant get away from the fact that it is slightly slower than the 4870 and its really the lowest performance bracket for even considering directX11, didn't everyone always say you don't buy the first generation for the new directX but because its faster at the old directX, which makes the 5770 hard to recommend as its slower than the cheaper card.
the 5830 might very well be the sweet spot all depending an price and relative performance (I'm expecting around 4890 performance and £170).
Nvidia 260gtx was a good option at £117 but now its not at £160 and out of stock anyway.
in the next bracket up nothing comes close to the ATI5850 for £219, and its probably a better deal than the 5870 at £300.
the nvidia 295 is just too expensive to be a realistic alternative even though its faster than the 5870, not available anyway.
the 5970 is a nice card but 2x 5850 is a much better bet in my opinion.
on the best bang per buck stakes, at the moment (especially going by OCUK prices) i really don't think the ATI4890 is that good a deal anymore %33 more or even %50 more if you looking at cards actually in stock over the ATI4870 for £100 and thats even the vapour X edition with the better cooler.
the ATI 5770 at £117 is a good deal but you cant get away from the fact that it is slightly slower than the 4870 and its really the lowest performance bracket for even considering directX11, didn't everyone always say you don't buy the first generation for the new directX but because its faster at the old directX, which makes the 5770 hard to recommend as its slower than the cheaper card.
the 5830 might very well be the sweet spot all depending an price and relative performance (I'm expecting around 4890 performance and £170).
Nvidia 260gtx was a good option at £117 but now its not at £160 and out of stock anyway.
in the next bracket up nothing comes close to the ATI5850 for £219, and its probably a better deal than the 5870 at £300.
the nvidia 295 is just too expensive to be a realistic alternative even though its faster than the 5870, not available anyway.
the 5970 is a nice card but 2x 5850 is a much better bet in my opinion.
Ok, I'm going to admit. If anything, I am an nvidia fanboy... I say this because.
I've never had an ATi card.
My current setup is a GTX260(core216) with an 8800GT set as a physX card.
My reasons: Although on paper, ATi cards have always had better specs (double the shader cores? wow) nVidia ones have always been on top in terms of reviews, benchmarks, game FPS, whatever you want to use as a comparison. This was the same when I bought my GTX260. I paid about the same price they are now, a year ago. Back then, it was in the top percentile of cards, and I'm still very happy with it. I'm playing recent games at max settings with some amount of AA and AF, and I've had no slowdown/lag or crashes since i fixed my overclock. (BSODs due to not enough voltage on the CPU-NB)
I've also been an AMD fanboy over the years, having never used an Intel until i bought an atom netbook over the weekend. (though it has an nVidia graphics chip
)
I will say though, as long as it still works to do this, I will most likely next time round, get an ATi card. Most definitely a 5 series... But until my system starts struggling to have the Textures on Ultra High, I'm going to stick with what I've got until failure.
What I've always liked about nVidia is the driver support - the nVidia control panel is so easy to use, and although I can't personally see what PhysX actually does, I'm wondering if I'll notice if i turn it off... Anyone here know if its still possible to run an ATi main card, with an nVidia one as a PhysX card?
I'm sure nVidia will bring out something that will rival the sheer power of current ATi cards in the next couple of years - we don't even know what Fermi is actually going to be like yet. It may wipe the smile off all those 5870 owners and 5970 pre-orderers... there's no way to know until it actually gets released and... sigh... benchmarked.
I don't think I'm biased at all, I'm just going by the trends. AMD have always had a reputation as gamer processors, and they're cheaper... Much cheaper. Price is a huge thing to me, which is why i used to have an 8800GT (price/performance ratio through the roof) and then upped to my GTX260 once the price became the same as i paid for the 8800.
Okay, I hope that this post isn't too long for people to read!
I've never had an ATi card.
My current setup is a GTX260(core216) with an 8800GT set as a physX card.
My reasons: Although on paper, ATi cards have always had better specs (double the shader cores? wow) nVidia ones have always been on top in terms of reviews, benchmarks, game FPS, whatever you want to use as a comparison. This was the same when I bought my GTX260. I paid about the same price they are now, a year ago. Back then, it was in the top percentile of cards, and I'm still very happy with it. I'm playing recent games at max settings with some amount of AA and AF, and I've had no slowdown/lag or crashes since i fixed my overclock. (BSODs due to not enough voltage on the CPU-NB)
I've also been an AMD fanboy over the years, having never used an Intel until i bought an atom netbook over the weekend. (though it has an nVidia graphics chip
)I will say though, as long as it still works to do this, I will most likely next time round, get an ATi card. Most definitely a 5 series... But until my system starts struggling to have the Textures on Ultra High, I'm going to stick with what I've got until failure.
What I've always liked about nVidia is the driver support - the nVidia control panel is so easy to use, and although I can't personally see what PhysX actually does, I'm wondering if I'll notice if i turn it off... Anyone here know if its still possible to run an ATi main card, with an nVidia one as a PhysX card?
I'm sure nVidia will bring out something that will rival the sheer power of current ATi cards in the next couple of years - we don't even know what Fermi is actually going to be like yet. It may wipe the smile off all those 5870 owners and 5970 pre-orderers... there's no way to know until it actually gets released and... sigh... benchmarked.
I don't think I'm biased at all, I'm just going by the trends. AMD have always had a reputation as gamer processors, and they're cheaper... Much cheaper. Price is a huge thing to me, which is why i used to have an 8800GT (price/performance ratio through the roof) and then upped to my GTX260 once the price became the same as i paid for the 8800.
Okay, I hope that this post isn't too long for people to read!
With my (still on pre-order) 5970 it's the first time ever that I purchased and ATI card.
I'm no 'fanboi', it just happened that whenever I needed a new card Nvidia happened to have the right one for me (then ATI'd have a better one the following week lol but it'd be too late for me).
This time the role's being reversed though.
I'm no 'fanboi', it just happened that whenever I needed a new card Nvidia happened to have the right one for me (then ATI'd have a better one the following week lol but it'd be too late for me).
This time the role's being reversed though.
