Spec me...a new boiler

I would go for the Vailliant I have some over 20 years old and built like **** house doors used to be - thick galvanising - they just don't wear out. However the condensing boilers that one must now install will have a shorter life and need more attention. Where do you live - that may play a part in the cost of installation. For pricing the boiler check the prices on ebay and then local plumbers merchants

certainly Fit a magnaclean
 
Last edited:
OK this is will probably rub some folk up the wrong way, but its only my opinion from the last 15 yrs of fixing peoples heating systems. I very rarely install, so dont give a monkeys on which boiler offers the best deal/profit/incentives, or even easiness to fit.

Off top of my head:

Worcester Bosch: Good boilers if you buy the top of the range. Alloy heat exchangers will produce sediment from condensate, so require proper servicing.
Baxi: Again good boilers if you go for the high end DuoTec, barely any plastic. Clean running.
Vaillant: Above average boilers, a few design issues, some plastic/rubber components, poor backup service. Clean running, Need properly commissioning tho: Lots of Eng' settings.
GlowWorm/SaunierDuval/Radiant/etc: Avoid! cheap boilers, lots of plastic, poor reliability.
Ideal: Cheap boilers, again plastic hydraulics, unreliable pcb's. Alloy heat exhanger produces sediment that blocks the tiny trap, fills the combustion chamber with condensate.
Halstead: cheap, unreliable, expensive parts, plastic hydraulics
Viessmann: Poor design, rubber/plastic parts that split/leak etc. Replaced several pcbs too (not cheap).
Chaffoteaux: plastic components, not too reliable either.
Keston: Good performance, weak reliablilty.
Ferroli: cheap n nasty.
Sime: see above, tho better than a ferroli.


Dont look at anything below 28Kw
Fit a magnaclean,(Pro or twintech) even if you replace all your rads (we fit them as standard to all our installs) You wont believe the amount of radiators/towel rails that flake small amounts of metal off internally.
If you do go down the route of a cheap boiler, make sure you get one with the 5yrs warranty (you'll need it).
Dont go for anything foriegn. Waiting for parts to come into the country when your freezing with no dhw or ch is not funny.


There is so much to this, that is why you need someone good to come round and have chat with you.

Oh and to the post above about 20yrs old BBU's being 'perfectly efficient'.....Perhaps you should go to Sedbuks website and compare a 68% efficient BBU with a 91% efficient condensing boiler. BBU: reliable: yes, Efficient: No.
 
Very good (and brief, which I struggle with) run-down of the manufacturers FlyingFish :) . Though as mentioned I rated Vaillant higher (had so few problems with them compared to some others). I only fix them too, not install (once in a blue moon only). If you kept a spare water pressure sensor around, you'd probably never be without the boiler for more than a few hours while you wait for someone to come fit it :p .

I didn't really mention Baxi but FlyingFish has reminded me. I installed one for my Gran', so that must be some praise at least :p . Loving the fully brass water section! Only thing I've come across going wrong with them is the stupid red burner compartment seal. It seems to randomly deteriorate sometimes and them causes the fan-overheat stat in the compartment below it to lock-out the boiler (no damage done AT ALL, just a minor annoyance that could be easily fixed with a better seal in the first place). The "Platinum" model is identical to the Duo-Tec but comes with 5yrs parts & labour warranty.

I do agree on the Glowworm cheap plastics.. I've replaced so many of the black plastic manifolds that have pin-holed (though a DHW expansion vessel and pressure reducing valve would prevent that). Had it once on a Worcester too.. so not sure if I can entirely blame them, it's a consequence of using plastic, full-stop.

Ideal just need to start from scratch, not keep putting a different case on the Icos/Isar and marketing it as something new! :rolleyes: .

Edit: Also agree with the BBU statement. People very often mis-use the word "efficient", they are anything but efficient!

Worth noting for anyone with a back boiler, Baxi do a condensing back boiler now, though you have to put an electric (matching) fire on it too :) .
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all the knowledgable posts in this thread. I'm a bit wiser, which is something.

Maybe I'll just go for the most recent CORGI award winner - Baxi DuoTec 28. Plus flushing, plus a Magnaclean, plus a corrosion inhibitor. Although I'm looking at ~£300 for flushing, which is rather pricey.

My current boiler is 24KW and has been adequate, so I'll go on the price difference between a 24KW and 28KW version of the same model.

I'm now wondering (a) how on earth my coworker got a new boiler supplied and fitted for £800 and (b) what wasn't done with it.
 
Test the system water first. If it's been on a sealed system for a while there will be next to no sludge in the system as this only occurs when air gets in (ie, on a vented system). There's no point spending several hundred £'s on a flush and magnaclean if it's not needed.
 
Thanks for all the knowledgable posts in this thread. I'm a bit wiser, which is something.

Maybe I'll just go for the most recent CORGI award winner - Baxi DuoTec 28. Plus flushing, plus a Magnaclean, plus a corrosion inhibitor. Although I'm looking at ~£300 for flushing, which is rather pricey.

My current boiler is 24KW and has been adequate, so I'll go on the price difference between a 24KW and 28KW version of the same model.

I'm now wondering (a) how on earth my coworker got a new boiler supplied and fitted for £800 and (b) what wasn't done with it.

As mentioned, I fitted a Baxi Platinum 28kw (identical to the DuoTec but with the warranty) for my gran and it's been trouble free so far. When I was buying, the 28 was only around £30 more than the 24, so it was a no-brainer really.

As for flushing, you may not need a "powerflush" if the system is already clean, you may just need a (relatively) quick chemical flush. You just buy a bottle of something like THIS (Click) and add it to the system a week or two before the boiler is installed. You'd be a fool not to add a corrosion inhibitor, it's very cheap and any warranty on the boiler would be completely void without it. A Magnaclean would be a very good idea if you end up not having the system more thoroughly flushed as it will pick up anything that was missed.

For £800, you don't even get a good boiler. It must have been a very cheap brand (low quality) for about £400, then the system won't have been flushed (AT ALL) and who knows.. maybe the guy wasn't even Gas Safe registered? :o . I expect there are numerous install defects too (condensate route and termination being a common one). It won't last long before something goes wrong, I'd put money on it.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all the knowledgable posts in this thread. I'm a bit wiser, which is something.

Maybe I'll just go for the most recent CORGI award winner - Baxi DuoTec 28. Plus flushing, plus a Magnaclean, plus a corrosion inhibitor. Although I'm looking at ~£300 for flushing, which is rather pricey.

My current boiler is 24KW and has been adequate, so I'll go on the price difference between a 24KW and 28KW version of the same model.

I'm now wondering (a) how on earth my coworker got a new boiler supplied and fitted for £800 and (b) what wasn't done with it.

THeres things to consider, and one is that British Gas aren't always that expensive, local guys, in no way all but sometimes will be not doing some of the work required to be compliant with every little last regulation. Plus they'll be speccing things like a power flush, which costs signifticantly more than a simple flush, and things like hiring a fully spec'd electrician to do work if the boiler is in the kitchen, which it often is.

But British Gas are nearly always negotiable from what I've seen, get 3-4 quotes, they should be free, with an itemised list of costs, and compare what you're actually getting.

Keep in mind things like, if the system is old and likely has gunk built up in the system, when you file for a warranty replacement of a boiler, they'll come and check it and if they find the system all gunked up because it wasn't powerflushed, you'll find somewhere in the T&C's of the warranty contract that you aren't covered without a quality powerflush before fitting the new rad, as the easiest failure point of a boiler is gunked up heat exchangers which get utterly screwed by gunk in the system.

So that could be £1k for a powerflush listed by British gas, against a £300 drain/flush from the local guy.

British Gas are pretty good to get a quote from purely because they'll likely do everything you need to be compliant and forfill all warranty requirements so you aren't screwed in the future, and at worst you have a great list to work off when asking for work off other local guys/companies.


As others have said, Valliant are very highly rated, look around on plumber oriented forums who talk to each other and ask each other for advice on jobs they are doing. Then see which boilers they say break down constantly, and which rarely if ever break down.

You'll see Vallient, Baxi, Veismann and Worcester Bosch as the main ones to go for.

In terms of power required, again your several quotes and the guys who come to do them will have a very decent knowledge of what you need, which will be determined by, how many bathrooms/showers you have, how many are likely to be used at the same time. I forget if combi's are determined purely by their central heating power, or just by bathroom numbers, either way, again, quotes/gas men can help you out here and recommend the right thing.

Not sure if theres still vouchers available, but if you have a crappy rated one, which is slightly less likely at 12 years old, then you might be eligible for one of the £400 off vouchers, and n-power/british gas are matching the voucher so you can get £800 off a new install, which if the quote is competitive(considering what they actually want to do in terms of work), then that could be the way to go.

AS for your coworker getting one for £800, if its just a crap boiler but a very newly fitted system, well its perfectly possible for a boiler to just give in and be literally a drop in and replace, which will be the cost of the plumber for a few hours and the boiler and not much else.

On a 12 year old system, a basic flush would be required at the minimum, powerflush maybe, depends often on how well the system was originally put together.

But this is also why local guys or cowboys can be very cheap, not adhere to any of the regulations, ignore safety issues, drop in a new boiler and do very little other work, then you find yourself in 2 years with a broken boiler which the manufacturer won't replace due to the crappy work. At which point you have to pay for a new boiler and probably all the work done properly like you should have done the first time.

Thats why fully itemised quotes are important, so you can compare what you're actually getting.

Another reason British Gas are often expensive is because, well our plumber is very highly rated, not british gas and he has a whole host of other qualifications so he and his team can basically do anything you need building/plumbing/electrician wise. However he's doing a bathroom for us and isn't available till March. British Gas have so many people you can likely have it done within a couple weeks. But the numbers of people, coverage and availability mean by and large the company costs more to run and so they can cost more. But then a company that knows people need a new boiler and a fixed system, know if they can offer it done WAY before most plumbers, they can also charge more for that privilege.
 
Don't go thinking just because British Gas charge more that it'll be that much better than everyone else. The engineers are being pushed to breaking point at the moment and there's simply not enough time in the day to do all that's being asked of them. They don't cost more because they're a bigger company, they cost more because they want to squeeze every last drop of profit out of both jobs and engineers.

/bitterness
 
As for flushing, you may not need a "powerflush" if the system is already clean, you may just need a (relatively) quick chemical flush. You just buy a bottle of something like THIS (Click) and add it to the system a week or two before the boiler is installed.

That appears to require a Fernox injector, which means paying £80 for something I'll use once. My system is sealed, so I'd need something to get the Fernox into it via a radiator. The website also says it takes an hour, not a week or two. Am I missing something?

You'd be a fool not to add a corrosion inhibitor, it's very cheap and any warranty on the boiler would be completely void without it. A Magnaclean would be a very good idea if you end up not having the system more thoroughly flushed as it will pick up anything that was missed.

I'm going to have to read any warranty very carefully, although I expect it to be worded so loosely that it's essentially meaningless anyway, with woolly phrases to allow them to declare it void pretty much all the time.

For £800, you don't even get a good boiler.

That's odd, as the Baxi Duotec 24 retails at ~£650. Likewise Worcester-Bosch Greenstar 24.

It must have been a very cheap brand (low quality) for about £400, then the system won't have been flushed (AT ALL) and who knows.. maybe the guy wasn't even Gas Safe registered? :o . I expect there are numerous install defects too (condensate route and termination being a common one). It won't last long before something goes wrong, I'd put money on it.

I don't think I'll tell her that :) She's happy with it so far. Maybe she'll be lucky. EDIT: It's a Baxi. She's sure of that.


So...Baxi Duotec 24 or 28 (I've just looked and found ~£100 price difference, but I'll get quotes), chemical flush, magnaclean, corrosion inhibitor. Apply for a scrappage voucher first, although my current boiler apparently isn't rated at all so I probably can't get a scrappage voucher.
 
Last edited:
Chemicals are a must for any install, its a fool who doesnt have it in their system with a modern boiler.

Most modern boilers do not rust or corrode! Its the radiators and towel rails etc that do. Adding chemicals stops this..All well and good for a shiny new system with new rads. But even then metal particles will still be present in the system. Most decent boilers, like the DuoTec, have a basic strainer on the return valve to catch these bits. But it is much better to a have a Magnaclean to do a proper job. Let alone the stuff thats in the bottom of an existing rad system.

Oh and a simple drain-down only leaves the crap in the bottom of the rads, not much use, unless you put some decent anti sludge chemical in 2 weeks before draining & flushing...Still not as successful as a powerflush tho.

I've done powerflushes where the system water was very clean & clear, but had lots of metal flakes present from the radiators. Modern combi's with their super fast pumps pick all this up out of the bottom of the radiators and have it thru the combi heat-exchangers in no time......Say goodbye to performance and efficiency.

Gone are the days where you can just lob ye olde cast iron boiler on the wall and have years of trouble free running with no extra thought.

If you already have a combi, you wont get the scrappage voucher. Its really for the old cast iron open flue pilot-light boilers (like BBU's) that chuck all the heat up the chimney into the atmosphere. But if you want to check on your current boilers 'band', then goto SEDBUK.com and search for your boiler.

Re: Warranty, I do work for a couple of manufacturers and insurers (as well as everyone else)....If your boiler hasnt been serviced regularly, or the fault is down to any form of sludge or scale damage, or system design....Then your warranty means diddly squat! 5yr warranty or extra insurance wont normally cover the repair.

Mick

BTW: This time of year (cold mains water) I've come across far too many people unhappy with their hot water performance from a 24kw combi..It would be wise to start at last with a 28Kw...Cos once your boiler is in, your stuck with it!
 
I'd go for Vaillant!

You can get a half decent model for £1000 - £1200 and then £400 - £500 for fitting by a professional.
 
i tried to mend the boiler at home once, big mistake :(

(long story but the whole thing ended up in flames with me running for dear life out of the garage door)
 
I recently had 4 quotes to replace an aging Worcester 240 combi, and applied for, and got the £400 scrappage rebate. Its nothing to do with the company/person installing it, so the prices havent been artificially increased. You pay for the install, get the installer to sign the paperwork, and then post it off. You get the money paid direct to your bank account within 28 days.

All the installers said to stear clear of Baxi's, so we ended up going for a Worcester Bosch Greenstar 42CDI, installed for £2300, with chemical flush and inhibitor. The quotes varied wildly, some upto £3500. Local installer was the cheapest, and offered a five year guarantee, with an extra year supplied by Worcester for using the scrappage scheme, so six years in total.
 
... So ... advice, please. ...
All I can offer is that I have had two "Potterton NetaHeat Profile" boilers installed over the years and have never had any great problems with either of them.

I do seem to have been unlucky with thermostatic valves (which are prone to sticking shut) and panel radiators which seem to rust remarkably quickly and the replacement NEVER drops straight back into place, the dimensions are ALWAYS sufficiently different to require changes to the pipework.

I had never heard of the Adey MagnaClean but will definitely remember it in future and try to get one retrofitted and my system flushed in the summer /tiphat/
 
All I can offer is that I have had two "Potterton NetaHeat Profile" boilers installed over the years and have never had any great problems with either of them.

They don't make these any more but if you have one you MUST get it serviced every year, especially if it's older. Unlike modern boilers it's got "positive pressure" from the fan. This means if any of the seals fail it will blow products of combustion out of the boiler rather. Nothing to worry about as long as it's all checked every year but it's very important that it's inspected properly.
 
They don't make these any more but if you have one you MUST get it serviced every year, especially if it's older. Unlike modern boilers it's got "positive pressure" from the fan. This means if any of the seals fail it will blow products of combustion out of the boiler rather. Nothing to worry about as long as it's all checked every year but it's very important that it's inspected properly.
Good point although I believe that this only applies to the earlier "Potterton NetaHeat".

As I understand it, Potterton corrected this failing with the later "Profile", I don't quite know how :confused:
A new boiler with 'negative case pressure' was introduced by Potterton to replace the NetaHeat. The "NetaHeat Profile" is a completely different boiler, just as good, but without the risks associated with incorrect case-fitting. The NeatHeat Profile will simply not run if the case is not correctly fitted. The "NetaHeat Profile" was later renamed to just "Profile". A first class boiler in my opinion. (LINK)

Because I am a coward and cynic I have fitted a Kidde 900-0146-UK carbon monoxide detector near the boiler anyhow.
 
Good point although I believe that this only applies to the earlier "Potterton NetaHeat".

As I understand it, Potterton corrected this failing with the later "Profile", I don't quite know how :confused:

Just swap the fan to blow the products of combustion out, rather than have it sucking the clean air in. Easy change for a manufacturer to make. Most newer boilers are actually positive pressure, but usually have multiple seals (i.e. a chamber within a chamber) to stop the past problems.
 
[..]
For £800, you don't even get a good boiler. It must have been a very cheap brand (low quality) for about £400, then the system won't have been flushed (AT ALL) and who knows.. maybe the guy wasn't even Gas Safe registered? :o . I expect there are numerous install defects too (condensate route and termination being a common one). It won't last long before something goes wrong, I'd put money on it.

More info - the installation was done by a friend at cost. Handy having a gas safe registered friend living just over the road who's willing to give up most of a weekend to do you a favour. That £800 was flat cost, not a bean for labour or added on to the cost of parts. The system was flushed, too. She's no idea whether it was a chemical flush or a powerflush, because she wouldn't know the difference. The boiler is a Baxi Duotec (which you can buy with the necessary flue stuff for £700).
 
Chemicals are a must for any install, its a fool who doesnt have it in their system with a modern boiler.

They look cheap enough. If I'm spending £1500, I may as well shell out a little extra for the chemicals.

Most modern boilers do not rust or corrode! Its the radiators and towel rails etc that do. Adding chemicals stops this..All well and good for a shiny new system with new rads. But even then metal particles will still be present in the system. Most decent boilers, like the DuoTec, have a basic strainer on the return valve to catch these bits. But it is much better to a have a Magnaclean to do a proper job. Let alone the stuff thats in the bottom of an existing rad system.

£80 for a Magnaclean. That's half the cost of one repair, so I'll certainly have one. How long do they last? If they filter anything out, it has to go somewhere. So where does it go?

Oh and a simple drain-down only leaves the crap in the bottom of the rads, not much use, unless you put some decent anti sludge chemical in 2 weeks before draining & flushing...Still not as successful as a powerflush tho.

If I had a spare £300, I'd have a powerflush to be on the safe side. I don't.

The Fernox website says it takes 1 hour, not 2 weeks. That's quite a difference, so what am I missing?

If you already have a combi, you wont get the scrappage voucher. Its really for the old cast iron open flue pilot-light boilers (like BBU's) that chuck all the heat up the chimney into the atmosphere. But if you want to check on your current boilers 'band', then goto SEDBUK.com and search for your boiler.

I've already tried that. The boiler I have (Vokera Maxin 24e) isn't listed. Nor is it listed in the government database. It might be band G. It was almost certainly the cheapest boiler that could be bought by the con artists who renovated my home before I bought it off them.

Re: Warranty, I do work for a couple of manufacturers and insurers (as well as everyone else)....If your boiler hasnt been serviced regularly, or the fault is down to any form of sludge or scale damage, or system design....Then your warranty means diddly squat! 5yr warranty or extra insurance wont normally cover the repair.

I operate under the assumption that insurance is fictional, warranties are fictional and extended warranties all the more so. That way, I'm not disappointed.

I'll be "insuring" a new boiler by paying the same amount of money as an insurance payment into a savings account each month and using that for repairs as necessary.

BTW: This time of year (cold mains water) I've come across far too many people unhappy with their hot water performance from a 24kw combi..It would be wise to start at last with a 28Kw...Cos once your boiler is in, your stuck with it!

My 24KW combi, which probably isn't really 24KW any more, is adequate. I do find that at this time of year I do have to shower with less water pressure because the boiler can't heat it enough at full whack, but that's not a big deal. I will go for 28KW if the price difference isn't great.

I appreciate the replies in this thread. I now know enough to not be a totally dumb target for being ripped off without even knowing it and to not buy a complete turkey that will spawn spiralling repair costs and be scrap in next to no time.
 
Back
Top Bottom