MSc the new BSc?

[Amp34]

Perhaps nursing could be used as a case in point? I'm not sure if it has happened yet, but haven't the government said they want nurses to have degrees, too? Now that might seem crazy because a nurse is a nurse, right? But perhaps it isn't as simple as that, perhaps nurses now have more expected of them than nurses of old?

I can't really comment on that, but all I'm saying is that it could be a reason for this change. It'd be interesting to have a nurse's input, tbh.

Quite possibly.

I was thinking more to do with the generic base level jobs that now need a degree level candidate, where before they would have just hired someone with decent A-Levels, or even GCSE's. The fact that any degree level candidate will do seems to indicate to me that the actual degree isn't really important. Also the number of people that apparently cant progress in a company after a few jumps because they don't have a degree, again generic degree is fine so it's not about the subject studied.

 

[Helios1234]

Any unfortunately i'm a geoscientist...

However I can see in the future engineering grads needing an MSc in a relevant subject before they are employable at certain larger companies (some already do that).

What subject are you studying? I'm doing geophysics myself and all the companies who come to our uni offering placements and graduate schemes seem to be looking for MSc students and not MSci. Most of the people in our year are now having second thoughts about the point of doing the 4th year and instead going straight into doing an MSc.

Our year coordinator seems to think that a 4 year undergraduate MSci is enough to get a job but speaking to Shell and BP, they seem to prefer more specialized MSc students.

 

[exhashdotdot]

One thing you hear all the time (as I believe someone pointed out) is that a lot of graduates with rarer unrelated degrees get chosen over more relevant but higher populated qualifications (you'd think most of the people in the stock market were business graduates wouldn't you? - they're actually mostly physicists and mathematicians).

Heck, because i'm nearing towards the end of my 2nd year (Physics and Computer science), I've been more concerned lately with what the future is for me. I've asked questions like "has doing a joint honours shot myself in the foot if I want a career in physics". Actually, what's instead happened is that I've if anything; I've got more of a chance of getting where I want (such as a post-graduate masters in Physics) all because I stand out because of my degree scheme.
I'm actually one of the only people in my entire university who does my course. There can only be a handful of people (I assume) in the entire country who at my stage of the game have the same range of skills as me.

I think when there's such a large number of people doing degrees in this day, being able to stand out is what makes all the difference. Taking the less popular, more challenging degree schemes may prove to be beneficial to a lot of people.

Ironically, if I do go on to do a masters in Physics, I'll be entering a much more populated field of similar skilled people.

As I said earlier, it's more likely an employer will choose the mathematician or physicist or even engineer over generic business graduate #476

Apologies for a long (and hopefully not narcissistic) post.

 

[Amp34]

What subject are you studying? I'm doing geophysics myself and all the companies who come to our uni offering placements and graduate schemes seem to be looking for MSc students and not MSci. Most of the people in our year are now having second thoughts about the point of doing the 4th year and instead going straight into doing an MSc.

Our year coordinator seems to think that a 4 year undergraduate MSci is enough to get a job but speaking to Shell and BP, they seem to prefer more specialized MSc students.

I studied straight Geology, and decided not to continue on to the MGeol /MSci partly for that reason. This year I have mostly... been applying for Seismic Processing jobs. Mainly because that seems to be about the only thing out there at the moment, however I did speak to a couple of recruiters about jobs I applied for and both said almost every one else applying had Masters (and as you pointed out the majors also want MSc's).

As I wrote earlier I think MSci's are great as a precursor to a PHd but they aren't really going to get you too far in the jobs market over a BSc. However it is another year at undergrad costs so it's not all bad.

I gave up looking properly for jobs with a BSc in Oil/Gas however as it is pretty worthless and why I (am) contemplated heading to Oz to get into the mineral exploration side of things, where apparently there is quite a demand for graduates (talking to people in the business), and i'm guessing geophys grads as well if you want to head over there. My plans are in limbo at the moment as I appear to have been offered a place on an MSc Petroleum Geoscience course a few days ago, which I didn't expect (10-1 application ratio and most on the course come from overseas) so as long as I get funding i'll probably be doing that instead. Worth another year of study? Apparently so.

 

[BigglesPiP]

Not sure about the MSc/BSc

But as far as I can tell, an MEng has one more year of work, but is no harder or more informative than a BEng.

 

[exhashdotdot]

I gave up looking properly for jobs with a BSc in Oil/Gas however as it is pretty worthless and why I (am) contemplated heading to Oz to get into the mineral exploration side of things, where apparently there is quite a demand for graduates (talking to people in the business), and i'm guessing geophys grads as well if you want to head over there.

Out of curiosity, why did you end up not going down this route?

Family? Friends? More expensive graphics cards?

 

[Amp34]

Out of curiosity, why did you end up not going down this route?

Family? Friends? More expensive graphics cards?

I still am.

I've spent the last 9 months here looking for Geology jobs but haven't had much success so a few weeks ago I decided to high tail it around May and see about getting a job in Oz. However I got an email accepting me on the MSc last week so plans are on hold at the moment to see if I get the funding as well (there is a reasonable amount for the course, possibly over 3/4 of the EU place).

If I do then I've got some hard decisions to make, stay and do the MSc or head over to Oz and get a job in exploration (with the very good pay (AU$70k which works out at £40k ish at todays rates!) and possibly interesting career). If I stay then it's another year of study (I like the content) and hopefully a good chance of getting a career at the end of it (on around £30k)... I'm trying not to think about it too much at the moment so I don't get to annoyed if the funding doesn't materialise.

So far there are at least two people in my year who have moved over there so far, another two are heading there in the next couple of months and myself and another friend are contemplating it as well, quite a lot of the 30 people that graduated this year!

 

[exhashdotdot]

I still am.

I've spent the last 9 months here looking for Geology jobs but haven't had much success so a few weeks ago I decided to high tail it around May and see about getting a job in Oz. However I got an email accepting me on the MSc last week so plans are on hold at the moment to see if I get the funding as well (there is a reasonable amount for the course, possibly over 3/4 of the EU place).

If I do then I've got some hard decisions to make, stay and do the MSc or head over to Oz and get a job in exploration (with the very good pay (AU$70k which works out at £40k ish at todays rates!) and possibly interesting career). If I stay then it's another year of study (I like the content) and hopefully a good chance of getting a career at the end of it (on around £30k)... I'm trying not to think about it too much at the moment so I don't get to annoyed if the funding doesn't materialise.

So far there are at least two people in my year who have moved over there so far, another two are heading there in the next couple of months and myself and another friend are contemplating it as well, quite a lot of the 30 people that graduated this year!

It definitely sounds like you have some tough choices ahead. I've got another year before I have to worry about this sort of thing.

All the best with whatever route you take mate.

 

[IceBus]

I really really hope that MScs don't become the new BScs because it'll only further devalue education.

The problem we currently have is because Labour told the country that everyone should go to university, when 50% of the population probably couldn't even spell matriculation. If the same thing happens with Masters courses we'll end up with them becoming devalued to the point of them being useless as well.

A lot of the problem is down to the current job market, and employers can basically pick the perfect candidate - because they can hold out for someone with 5+ years of experience working as a vet in Nigeria, an MSc in needlework and who is fluent in Swahili.

I can only really talk about my sector (international aid and development), but as it currently stands there are no entry level jobs out there and most big NGOs have put a hiring freeze in place for everything but non-essential acquisitions (Oxfam etc.). The career path used to be get an entry level job, work for a couple of years getting an experience, then do an MA to put that experience into a more project management sort of frameset.

As it currently stands, I have a first class honours from a Russell Group uni, in politics and I can't get onto even the lowest rung of the career ladder. And it's not just me - I have friends with MAs and even one friend who has studied internationally, has two Masters degrees and still can't get a job.

A huge proportion of this is the economy, but there's also a lot to do with the fact that degrees have been dumbed down so that half the country are able to pass a degree. It's sickening to feel like working damn hard for three years hasn't really set me out from the pack by much at all.

If I do an MA it'll be in the USA, where I get two years of high quality teaching and a LOT more contact time and bang for my buck than a 1yr MA taught by half-baked PhD candidates in the UK.

 

[Amp34]

It definitely sounds like you have some tough choices ahead. I've got another year before I have to worry about this sort of thing.

All the best with whatever route you take mate.

Thanks.

It's the usual, you wait ages and two come along at once. I'm waiting for a dream job to ring me and ask for an interview, just to get the third. Then in a months time not get the job or the funding and then fail my driving test (reason I am waiting til May to go) and be back to square one...

Hopefully when you get out the graduate market will be a bit better than it is now.

 

[dowie]

I can see even the really popular grad schemes starting to specify a masters minimum (technical areas in a lot of oil companies, eg. BP and Shell already do).

If you do an MSc in order to go onto a grad scheme at BP or Shell why on earth do you need taxpayer funding?

In the grand scheme of things, considering your potential career options and future earnings if you chose to do the course vs if you chose not to is 20k or so extra debt in any way significant at all?

 

[Amp34]

If you do an MSc in order to go onto a grad scheme at BP or Shell why on earth do you need taxpayer funding?

In the grand scheme of things, considering your potential career options and future earnings if you chose to do the course vs if you chose not to is 20k or so extra debt in any way significant at all?

I see your point, but my point wasn't about taxpayer funding, it was about overall debt through education, where your overall aim may be to work for BP or Shell but that may not come to fruition. If an MSc ends up being almost the equivilent of a BSc so you need an MSc to be in with even a chance of getting a job then most people won't end up working for BP and Shell... Think of how many people have BSc/BA's now and work in low paid jobs (shelf stacking/retail etc), now think of them having £50k orth of debt around their necks, only £20k of it in a low interest government subsidised (AKA student loans). That is going to cripple people before they even get started.

At the moment funding for MSc's relevant to BP etc. come from two main sources, NERC (National Environment Research Council) and the companies themselves. Admittedly the former is taxpayer funded but it isn't remotely in the same form as undergrad courses.

 

[dowie]

The thing with undergrad masters is they aren't actually called MSc's which means they can (and are) differentiated by employers (or at least the ones I've spoken to who said they are essentially thought of as the same as BSc's)

Depends on the employer and the degree and how much the employer knows about the degree.... so depends on a lot of things tbh...

MEng is quite common in engineering and so I doubt many employers of engineers have an issue with it or value it as being the same as a BEng or BSc.

Some MSc degrees are conversion courses - CompSci being a good example - we had plenty of 'MSc' students in our 2nd and 3rd year undergrad modules doing the same lectures, same exams. Yet essentially all undergrad material.

Conversely some undergrad masters exist simply as a mechanism for students to do a 'masters' but still receive the same LEA funding/student loan that they got for their first 3 years of undergraduate study. So you can get instances where students doing a masters as a 4th year of their undergrad course are following exactly the same course as graduates from other universities who will be completing the same year of lectures/exams etc.. as a separate masters degree.

 

[Helios1234]

Ignore

 

[dowie]

I see your point, but my point wasn't about taxpayer funding, it was about overall debt through education, where your overall aim may be to work for BP or Shell but that may not come to fruition.

Well that's a risk you can personally choose to take. I still don't see why anything needs to be done about this tbh... If your point isn't related to taxpayer funding then how are you proposing to remove the need to get into debt from attending masters courses?

 

[Helios1234]

I studied straight Geology, and decided not to continue on to the MGeol /MSci partly for that reason. This year I have mostly... been applying for Seismic Processing jobs. Mainly because that seems to be about the only thing out there at the moment, however I did speak to a couple of recruiters about jobs I applied for and both said almost every one else applying had Masters (and as you pointed out the majors also want MSc's).

As I wrote earlier I think MSci's are great as a precursor to a PHd but they aren't really going to get you too far in the jobs market over a BSc. However it is another year at undergrad costs so it's not all bad.

I gave up looking properly for jobs with a BSc in Oil/Gas however as it is pretty worthless and why I (am) contemplated heading to Oz to get into the mineral exploration side of things, where apparently there is quite a demand for graduates (talking to people in the business), and i'm guessing geophys grads as well if you want to head over there. My plans are in limbo at the moment as I appear to have been offered a place on an MSc Petroleum Geoscience course a few days ago, which I didn't expect (10-1 application ratio and most on the course come from overseas) so as long as I get funding i'll probably be doing that instead. Worth another year of study? Apparently so.

Hehe yeah, even at our uni, most of the students studying Petroleum Geosciences are from overseas. I'm thinking along the lines of Seismic processing jobs as well. I need to send my CV off to PGS and CGG Veritas and they seem like excellent alternatives to BP and Shell etc, where I'm not sure what I'll actually be doing. We had a tour of the Weybridge PGS office a month back and it certainly looks like the kind of thing I'm interested in.

Good luck with whichever path you take!

Concerning the difference between MSc and MSci, I'm quite confused as well. The Master students study many of the same modules we do in our 3rd year and 4th year undergraduate courses but I suppose that could be where the two courses overlap. In our case, they tend to be more specialized in the petroleum side of things while we learn the broader aspects of it. What's frustrating are the company's lack of interest in MSci students despite us still having covered many of the modules the Masters students have as well.

 

[Amakuma]

Since earning my degree Ive found networking and nepostism are better for aquiring a good post graduate employment than any other method.

Working as a strength and con coach before going to korea, a lot of the guys I met coming off MSc and Bsc's with high grades did'nt know their ass form their elbow, but could write the most wonderful blurb

 

[skippy2421]

I don't think MSc's are becoming the new BSc's and i think telescopi has picked up on a very valid point. It would seem a lot of companies would rather take the lazy route and use qualifications to filter down the candidate as oppose to properly going through the applications.

There is also the point that has been mentioned before on the number of so called "micky mouse" degrees. This combined with telescopi's point have made hunting for jobs a rather difficult affair for those that haven't come from a prestigious institution and have a less "traditional" degree such as mathematics. So although it appears that BSc's aren't being looked at in the same light i don't think this is as a result of the degree and it's content more of a response by employers. However saying this, grades are not everything (they do help though), interview technique is also a very important thing along with relevant experience and being able to apply this experience and skills from your degree to your new potential role,

Now speaking from experience which i shall admit is rather limited, i think how a degree is perceived is entirely down to the employer and the person conducting the interview. I began a placement this academic year as oppose to continuing my third year and it would seem the primary reason for me getting the job was that i came across as less of a robot than the others. I now work with the colleagues who interviewed me which i feel is a good technique of recruiting as oppose to some HR numptys doing them but that is a separate topic. I have spoken to said colleagues about why i was picked and they said first of all you was one of a few that were actually appropriate for the job due to your degree (mathematics), you clearly came prepared and answered the questions well with good examples. However i was one of about 4 or 5 that met that criteria and ultimately it was my attitude and humorous comments at the interview that ultimately swayed the job my way. The words from one of the interviewers were. "you had the skills needed plus you seemed like you could be a good laugh to work with as oppose to the others who seemed a little bland" So the point i am trying to make is it is important to set yourself apart from all the other candidates.

Now on a slight tangent i think a lot of universities should promote placement years a lot more. Reason being is that many students do not know what they wish to do when they eventually finish their courses and may give them direction plus some great work experience. Now appreciate you are not going to get every student on placement but if these were promoted it may be beneficial to a great number of people. On top of this it will also give those who do already know which direction they wish to proceed to get relevant experience in that field thus setting them apart from the rest of the pack.

So to conclude my rant it's unlikely that the degrees are becoming less valued but there is a lot of competition out there. The attitude of employers who to be frank can be very lazy in the filtering process does not help but ultimately people do need to try and set themselves apart from the rest by any means possible if they want to land the high paying respected jobs.

 

[Haircut]

The perverse thing about all this is this apart from a small subset of jobs that actually require the masters for what they do all it does is put people in more debt as after the first, maybe second job no-one cares what degree you have anyway.

I graduated in 2001 with a BSc in Mathematical Physics. I only came out with a 2.2 though and I did get a few questions asked about my degree when going for my first graduate job.
I've now reached the stage where my education is relegated to a couple of lines at the bottom of my CV and I don't think recruiters even look at it anymore.

 

[[TW]Fox]

You tell us! How was it finding employment? Was there any feedback on your choice of degree?

I am still amazed at the ease with which I found employment at the end of my degree. I elected to stay on for a year and do an MSc in a similar subject simply because I felt I'd enjoy it (And my eventual job didn't even ask about it so I'm fairly sure it was of no benefit here) but I applied for a job 4 days after handing in my dissertation, and got it.

I appreciate that was a pretty extreme example but I've certainly got no complaints!