Are surge protectors a waste of money?

Soldato
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Based on my own electrical knowledge and westom's posts, I wouldn't bother with a surge protector. Best off getting a whole house protector or not buying anything and taking your chances.

These surge protectors seem analogous to a Monster 3m HDMI cable. They have fancy packaging, high price tags and loads of promises from the manufacturer - but when all is said and done they don't perform any better than a bog standard ACME brand HDMI cable.

I would say buy some solid, good quality extension cables and use the money saved towards Home insurance or a whole-house protector.
 
Associate
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There is a cover-all-cases clause that states liability of the manufacturer only when the surge protector was at fault, which is not the same as outright insurance on a claim basis.

As for surge protectors, I use them myself, but I am not naive enough to think they will ever replace a dedicated house unit plus a proper UPS between the power grid and the machine, which conditions current much better, and counts the number of abnormalities that hit it. ;) These measures are industrial grade, however, and applying them to a home setting is almost always overkill.

The cover is usually only up to £600, anything over is not covered so most peoples comps could only partially be replaced.

The PSU (ATX spec) does come with a built in surge protector for minor surges however, most house curcuit breakers will now trip with power surges as well.

Rating for surge adapters (box three way splitters) are up to 50A of current and can cope with just over 840V.

In the case of a lightnign strike it is more likely that a built in capacitor Placed inline with a powerful resistor will solve this issue - not surge protectors. For this your looking for a 100meg ohm resistor with the largest capacitor you can buy.

I also believe that the common earth on the distribution rings in the house can also act as a solution by bypassing the rest of the houses curcuitry but i don't know much in that aspect.

Overall i would say that it cant make it any worse and for just a few quid more its more worth it considering it will likely last donkey's years anyway
 
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Anyone who thinks they are immune to surges are ignorant. Maybe they might like to have a nice chat with one of my clients a few weeks back where damage was soo immense it cost him a new PC and he wouldn't be the only one where I've had to replace a whole PC because they have not taken such precautions.

The supply isn't clean and just because you spend £10 on a cheap SP from ASDA doesn't mean you're fully protected. Why pay ££££££ for cutting edge technologically to skimp on protection. It's like running a new car in without an oil filter.
 
Soldato
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Overall i would say that it cant make it any worse and for just a few quid more its more worth it considering it will likely last donkey's years anyway

So you're saying they probably don't do much good, but you may as well buy them? What about protecting some components and not others. Could the protection be compromised and possibly cause problems elsewhere?

Anyone who thinks they are immune to surges are ignorant. Maybe they might like to have a nice chat with one of my clients a few weeks back where damage was soo immense it cost him a new PC and he wouldn't be the only one where I've had to replace a whole PC because they have not taken such precautions.

The supply isn't clean and just because you spend £10 on a cheap SP from ASDA doesn't mean you're fully protected. Why pay ££££££ for cutting edge technologically to skimp on protection. It's like running a new car in without an oil filter.

Nobody here thinks they're immune, surges happen. The question was, do the plug in surge protectors actually offer any tangible protection? Your clients, what protection do they use or do you recommend then? Can you answer the question about the plug in type we are all recommended to buy? There's no doubt that decent 'whole house' protection can work well. What do you define as 'skimping' on protection?
 
Soldato
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I bought a Belkin one, hooked my PC and monitors up to it. Cost about £15, claims:
This model offers 714 Joules, 19,500 Maximum Spike Amperage, 4-sockets, and 1 metre power cable. This model comes with £25,000 Connected Equipment Warranty and our standard Lifetime Product Warranty.

I didn't buy it as such based on the strength of the protection, but for the warranty. As people keep saying, you're probably not going to stop a blast of lightning if it gets into your house, but £15 for a warranty that's going to last for a lifetime?

Am I missing something? I don't have any essential data stored purely on my hard drive, and I'd get all my PC and stuff replaced if they did get fried by a power surge, so is it such a huge problem if they do get fried?
I mean, for the price it seems fine. If I wanted complete protection then I could spend a few hundred £ on something that could stop a jolt of lightning, but the chance of that actually happening is miniscule, I'd rather be without a PC for a week or so while Belkin get round to sorting a replacement.
 
Soldato
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Anyone who gives a damn about their PC would buy a UPS. Cheap surge protectors are a waste of time, especially the really cheap 4-ways that so many people rely on.

If you're spending £500+ on a PC what's an extra £50 for a UPS?
 
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I have noticed that if you plug an amplifier into a surge protector it sounds rather naff. So they do do something, just something negative.
 
Soldato
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I bought a Belkin one, hooked my PC and monitors up to it. Cost about £15, claims:


I didn't buy it as such based on the strength of the protection, but for the warranty. As people keep saying, you're probably not going to stop a blast of lightning if it gets into your house, but £15 for a warranty that's going to last for a lifetime?

Am I missing something? I don't have any essential data stored purely on my hard drive, and I'd get all my PC and stuff replaced if they did get fried by a power surge, so is it such a huge problem if they do get fried?
I mean, for the price it seems fine. If I wanted complete protection then I could spend a few hundred £ on something that could stop a jolt of lightning, but the chance of that actually happening is miniscule, I'd rather be without a PC for a week or so while Belkin get round to sorting a replacement.

I've never bothered claiming one on warranty. If you look, there are many loopholes on the warranty belkin could use to get out. How do they know the surge protector failed when it was below the rated values? What if they claim the surge was larger than what is claimed to be protected? I'm really not sure on the value of the warranty, though I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's tried to claim attached devices on it.

Anyone who gives a damn about their PC would buy a UPS. Cheap surge protectors are a waste of time, especially the really cheap 4-ways that so many people rely on.

If you're spending £500+ on a PC what's an extra £50 for a UPS?

Why are they a waste of time though? What's your reasoning behind that? A UPS provides protection for brownouts or power drops, and a £50 UPS will probably have as good surge protection as most of the cheap surge protectors already linked to. What more are you gaining besides power in an outage?

Yep Any MOV which offers > 1000 joules and 40000 amperes ensures a good volume of joules are harmlessly grounded.

I wouldn't except this for example on my main PC:

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=UP-005-BE

but this would be fine:

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=UP-024-AP&groupid=702&catid=55&subcat=1209

however, this all depends on the spike that occurs.

Good and better protection > no or limited protection

In a linked article above, it says most surges (i.e. from other equipment or power lines) are around 100J (as they occur for nanoseconds), thus all a larger joule rating accomplishes is a greater risk of the MOV failing (and possibly fire). And I doubt that a lightning strike (although rare) would safely go to ground on any - even 3000J isn't that much compared to a strike. The article also claims there are still debates amongst experts about what method of protection is best.
 
Soldato
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Besides keeping the pc running in an outage, what will a ups achieve that a surge protector wont?

They eliminate power spikes completely and smooth out the power so your PC gets a constant supply. Brown outs protection is also very important as it can be more damaging than black outs.

Why are they a waste of time though? What's your reasoning behind that? A UPS provides protection for brownouts or power drops, and a £50 UPS will probably have as good surge protection as most of the cheap surge protectors already linked to. What more are you gaining besides power in an outage?

Because the cheap surge protects are just that, cheap. There was a test done a few years back which proved most did very little and could only take one proper surge before they became nothing more than a standard 4-way.

As above you're gaining better surge protection, that works multiple times.
Brown out protection.
Higher quality power supply to the PC.

This is enough to warrant one in my opinion. When a £50 UPS saves one or more of your components I'm sure it won't seem so silly.

The UPS I've used for 3 years cost £75, connects via USB to the PC, monitors power levels and emails me if there has been any problems.

I bought it after a branded surge protector failed to protect my previous PC after a brown out. To my knowledge I've had 5 brown outs and 3 power cuts while using the UPS. With no component damage or downtime.

IMO people who use cheap surge protectors and say "I'm OK so far" have just been lucky. They forget the PSU and components have tolerances which can survive minor spikes.
 
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Soldato
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They eliminate power spikes completely and smooth out the power so your PC gets a constant supply. Brown outs protection is also very important as it can be more damaging than black outs.

Source? Can you define 'smooth out'? In the previous thread it was stated that UPS provide a square wave output with peaks often at much higher voltages than mains.

Because the cheap surge protects are just that, cheap. There was a test done a few years back which proved most did very little and could only take one proper surge before they became nothing more than a standard 4-way.

Again, have you got a source for the test?

As above you're gaining better surge protection, that works multiple times.

Most half decent surge protectors claim to work after numerous surges. How do you know the surge protection in the UPS is any better? I would imagine the large majority of the cost of a UPS is the battery.

Brown out protection.
Higher quality power supply to the PC.

This is enough to warrant one in my opinion. When a £50 UPS saves one or more of your components I'm sure it won't seem so silly.

The UPS I've used for 3 years cost £75, connects via USB to the PC, monitors power levels and emails me if there has been any problems.

I bought it after a branded surge protector failed to protect my previous PC after a brown out. To my knowledge I've had 5 brown outs and 3 power cuts while using the UPS. With no component damage or downtime.

IMO people who use cheap surge protectors and say "I'm OK so far" have just been lucky. They forget the PSU and components have tolerances which can survive minor spikes.

Surge protectors don't claim brown out protection, though PC components can tolerate a certain amount without problems. Evidently yours were closer to a complete dropout, hence the UPS being able to patch the gaps.

What about people using cheap surge protectors but who have a decent ground and whole house protection? Surely even an expensive surge protector won't be great if the ground is poor?

I apologise if that sounds like I'm trying to say you're wrong, that's not the intention. I'm genuinely interested in finding the truth, based on facts, not hearsay or what other people have been told is right.
 
Associate
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Yes, he seems to know a fair bit but has problems expressing it clearly for us simpletons! I think the point was, that the keison would protect everything too, including the expensive stuff, but yeah, it is more expensive. Debateably more effective however, so perhaps not a fair comparison?

I've also replaced lots of blown PSUs, but not many decent ones. Difficult to prove why they've failed though.
Many power supplies sold to typical computer assemblers may be missing essential functions necessary for reliable operation and to meet regulations (ie EU Standards). But only the computer assembler is responsible for meeting those regulations. IOW manufacturer can forget to include £10-20 of parts. Only the computer manufacturer is responsible for making sure those functions exist. Then the supply sells for even higher profits. Then a computer assembler recommends a £80 UPS to compensate for missing £10 parts.

Most failures are manufacturing defects. Just about every power supply I have repaired or diagnosed was a failure directly traceable to component failure – a manufacturing defect. Component not located anywhere that a surge might cause damage. Remember those electrolytic capacitors with counterfeit materials? How long did that manufacturing defect exist before failures occurred? Months and years. That is how and why most things fail.

But so few know how to do this stuff. Yet somehow know why failures happen? Wild speculation is why surges get blamed. A typically destructive surge occurs maybe once every seven years - even less often in the UK. If you had a surge, then so many less robust appliances are also destroyed. But so many know it must be a surge based only on wild speculation.

Provided were reasons why - the numbers. No numbers is your first indication when a poster is lying. You need not understand most numbers. Maybe only 5% do. You need not understand most reasons why. But to know which reply is honest means that post also provides the numbers – the reasons why. No numbers is your first indication of junk science lies such as HowStuffWorks.com.

A perfect example of one who swallowed the lie - hook, line, and sinker. A long post hardly discusses page 2 because HowStuffWorks page 1 is so full of lies and myths. HowStuffWorks provides no numbers. No numbers is the first indication of lies. See "Inside a surge protector" in rec.radio.shortwave at to appreciate how technically insulting HowStuffWorks is:
http://*******.com/2fy7u

Read and only understand some reasons why. Anything that is truly informative takes at least three rereads to grasp. But the bottom line facts are obvious and simple. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Always. Plug-in protectors will not discuss energy and have near-zero energy numbers. Near-zero is sufficient to advertise myths in sales brochures. No earth ground (every power strip) means no effective protection. Yes, read that sentence at least three times. Plug-in protectors have no earth ground. 'Whole house' protectors are always how protection was done due to the always required short connection to earth.

The Keison is closer to £100. Not £500. If destructive surges exist, the Keison or equivalent is the only effective solutions. If a surge is causing computer failures, then it is also damaging the dishwasher, furnace, washing machine, microwave ovens, fire protection system, clock radios, etc. Which demonstrates how many blame imaginary surges. Either you need protection for everything ... or protection already inside the computer is making surges irrelevant. Effective protection means a destructive surge must not be inside the building. Once inside, nothing does effective protection.

Again, this simple. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Always that simple. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground because protection is always about where energy dissipates. Previously were reasons after numbers after reasons why that is true. But you need only grasp the bottom line. Where does energy dissipate? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground; as was true 100 years ago.

Why is this complex? Protection is always about where energy dissipates. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
 
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