Are surge protectors a waste of money?

[alex24]

On the back of this thread, I've started to wonder whether in a real surge they'll offer any protection at all. Has anyone had their equipment saved by a surge protector? That is, a power strip kind that cost £5 to £50 depending on model, not what is sometimes described as a 'surge arrestor'.

It's stated in the above thread that the most effective means of protection is a 'whole house' protector. Anybody else with knowledge on this?

Before you add your 2 cents, think about what you're saying, does it prove or disprove the question here? I'm open to any opinions, and am generally quite curious as to the answer of this question. When working as a PC tech and in sales, I was always told that they were needed, at least just for the PC. This view wasn't questioned.

So, what do you think?

 

[alex24]

I have never used a surge protector in the past 4 years of so of owning a high end system, i have also suffered no problems that a surge protector could have prevented.

A question of risk then.

Had a friend that had a decent belkin one and surge came down phone line due to lightning stike right outside the house. (remote area)

Fried the belkin and burnt the carpet but only damage to pc was the usb port the bb modem was plugged into (modem fried too of course)

Expect it would have been a lot worse if no protector but it still failed to do its job properly.

I have repaired countless machines that had recieved damage from surges down the telephone lines. The vast majority had failed modems, and a few had failed motherboards too. Not the extensive damage you may expect though, just a failed 56k modem was nothing to cry about. What about the mains power though? A large number of people now use routers some distance (often wirelessly) from their PCs, thus negating the risk from a phone line.

Considering a 4-way extension with surge protector is about £2 more than one without, I think it's plain stupid not to.

It might help, it might not, but for £2 there's no reason not to.

The sort I have to buy (to allow connection of all my expensive peripherals an aerial too) is an 8 gang, like this. That's £23, and I have loads of spare non-surge power extenders, so the cost is basically nothing for that. £23 wasted? Hardly £2 from my point of view, and I expect a lot of people. Fair point though, when in doubt, better safe than sorry. However, proporting to know a fair amount about PCs and associated electronics, I can no longer claim ignorance.

 

[alex24]

We don't tend to get power surges where I live but I have a surge protected gang socket for my all my PC kit. It would only take the one power surge and you've had it so it's peace of mind at the end of the day.

Would it though? How much do they actually protect from? A lightning strike is extremely powerful for example, would a small piece of electronics make any difference if it can jump all the way from the atmosphere? How do you know?

I always use 4way or 6way surge protectors, I don't feel comfortable if I'm not using one..

I know what you mean, but is that some sort of idea that's been put in our heads by salesmen?

Don't forget spikes, brown outs and other wonderful electrical nasties, people.

PSUs can deal with small spikes, as per the ATX specification, though no meaningful figures are quoted in that document. I think it stands to reason that a half-decent PSU could deal with a good amount of over potential resulting from poor supply. Similarly, with brownouts, the specification dictates that the PSU can deal with a certain amount, though this is not clear. What other 'electrical nasties' are you talking about?

A UPS can protect from a bad brown out or loss of supply, but not necessarily a surge.

Anyone who can properly confirm/deny the need for these devices? It really seems to be based on poor knowledge and sales spiel, I'm not sure what to believe!

 

[alex24]

Westom in my thread seems to know but i dont understand it at all....it seems the best way is to get a 'Whole house protector' like the Keison but im not going to pay over £500 to protect stuff worth less....plus if anything blows during a surge thats what the house insurance is for isnt it?

Yes, he seems to know a fair bit but has problems expressing it clearly for us simpletons! I think the point was, that the keison would protect everything too, including the expensive stuff, but yeah, it is more expensive. Debateably more effective however, so perhaps not a fair comparison?

I had a modem and PCI port die a few years ago from a surge down the phone line, bizarely the board was fine apart from that one PCI port.

I cant say I've ever knowingly repaird an power surge from the power line, but then I have replaced plenty of blown PSUs and PSUs+other components which could be attributed to a surge.

I do use a surge protector, just seems sensible, sorry I cant provide anything other than my own experiance and opinions. Im sure there will be someone along sooner or later who knows all about these things and can comment.

I was considering getting a UPS a couple of years ago when in uni halls as we had a lot of brown outs and with added surge protection seemed like a good idea.

I've also replaced lots of blown PSUs, but not many decent ones. Difficult to prove why they've failed though.

As you say, hopefully there is someone in the know, but this possible 'myth' seems to run deep!

As above, a UPS would help in that situation, but that's its only real function. Any surge protection would probably be as effective as the £7 4-gang models.

 

[alex24]

Overall i would say that it cant make it any worse and for just a few quid more its more worth it considering it will likely last donkey's years anyway

So you're saying they probably don't do much good, but you may as well buy them? What about protecting some components and not others. Could the protection be compromised and possibly cause problems elsewhere?

Anyone who thinks they are immune to surges are ignorant. Maybe they might like to have a nice chat with one of my clients a few weeks back where damage was soo immense it cost him a new PC and he wouldn't be the only one where I've had to replace a whole PC because they have not taken such precautions.

The supply isn't clean and just because you spend £10 on a cheap SP from ASDA doesn't mean you're fully protected. Why pay ££££££ for cutting edge technologically to skimp on protection. It's like running a new car in without an oil filter.

Nobody here thinks they're immune, surges happen. The question was, do the plug in surge protectors actually offer any tangible protection? Your clients, what protection do they use or do you recommend then? Can you answer the question about the plug in type we are all recommended to buy? There's no doubt that decent 'whole house' protection can work well. What do you define as 'skimping' on protection?

 

[alex24]

I bought a Belkin one, hooked my PC and monitors up to it. Cost about £15, claims:


I didn't buy it as such based on the strength of the protection, but for the warranty. As people keep saying, you're probably not going to stop a blast of lightning if it gets into your house, but £15 for a warranty that's going to last for a lifetime?

Am I missing something? I don't have any essential data stored purely on my hard drive, and I'd get all my PC and stuff replaced if they did get fried by a power surge, so is it such a huge problem if they do get fried?
I mean, for the price it seems fine. If I wanted complete protection then I could spend a few hundred £ on something that could stop a jolt of lightning, but the chance of that actually happening is miniscule, I'd rather be without a PC for a week or so while Belkin get round to sorting a replacement.

I've never bothered claiming one on warranty. If you look, there are many loopholes on the warranty belkin could use to get out. How do they know the surge protector failed when it was below the rated values? What if they claim the surge was larger than what is claimed to be protected? I'm really not sure on the value of the warranty, though I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's tried to claim attached devices on it.

Anyone who gives a damn about their PC would buy a UPS. Cheap surge protectors are a waste of time, especially the really cheap 4-ways that so many people rely on.

If you're spending £500+ on a PC what's an extra £50 for a UPS?

Why are they a waste of time though? What's your reasoning behind that? A UPS provides protection for brownouts or power drops, and a £50 UPS will probably have as good surge protection as most of the cheap surge protectors already linked to. What more are you gaining besides power in an outage?

Yep Any MOV which offers > 1000 joules and 40000 amperes ensures a good volume of joules are harmlessly grounded.

I wouldn't except this for example on my main PC:

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=UP-005-BE

but this would be fine:

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=UP-024-AP&groupid=702&catid=55&subcat=1209

however, this all depends on the spike that occurs.

Good and better protection > no or limited protection

In a linked article above, it says most surges (i.e. from other equipment or power lines) are around 100J (as they occur for nanoseconds), thus all a larger joule rating accomplishes is a greater risk of the MOV failing (and possibly fire). And I doubt that a lightning strike (although rare) would safely go to ground on any - even 3000J isn't that much compared to a strike. The article also claims there are still debates amongst experts about what method of protection is best.

 

[alex24]

They eliminate power spikes completely and smooth out the power so your PC gets a constant supply. Brown outs protection is also very important as it can be more damaging than black outs.

Source? Can you define 'smooth out'? In the previous thread it was stated that UPS provide a square wave output with peaks often at much higher voltages than mains.

Because the cheap surge protects are just that, cheap. There was a test done a few years back which proved most did very little and could only take one proper surge before they became nothing more than a standard 4-way.

Again, have you got a source for the test?

As above you're gaining better surge protection, that works multiple times.

Most half decent surge protectors claim to work after numerous surges. How do you know the surge protection in the UPS is any better? I would imagine the large majority of the cost of a UPS is the battery.

Brown out protection.
Higher quality power supply to the PC.

This is enough to warrant one in my opinion. When a £50 UPS saves one or more of your components I'm sure it won't seem so silly.

The UPS I've used for 3 years cost £75, connects via USB to the PC, monitors power levels and emails me if there has been any problems.

I bought it after a branded surge protector failed to protect my previous PC after a brown out. To my knowledge I've had 5 brown outs and 3 power cuts while using the UPS. With no component damage or downtime.

IMO people who use cheap surge protectors and say "I'm OK so far" have just been lucky. They forget the PSU and components have tolerances which can survive minor spikes.

Surge protectors don't claim brown out protection, though PC components can tolerate a certain amount without problems. Evidently yours were closer to a complete dropout, hence the UPS being able to patch the gaps.

What about people using cheap surge protectors but who have a decent ground and whole house protection? Surely even an expensive surge protector won't be great if the ground is poor?

I apologise if that sounds like I'm trying to say you're wrong, that's not the intention. I'm genuinely interested in finding the truth, based on facts, not hearsay or what other people have been told is right.

 

[alex24]

Having a safe backup would also be a good idea.

 

[alex24]

Thanks again for the informative post westom. Your link doesnt work properly, the site may be filtered.

AyJay, I think you missed the points above!

Based on those comments, I've never recently experienced a surge, like most people in the UK I guess. In fact, I never remember replacing clock radios or such.

Where does this misconception arise from? Admiral Huddy above shared his experiences with clients who've had stuff damaged from not having a surge protector. It follows then, that other equipment in the building would be damaged. What if this is not observed? Likely cause? PC failure? What if, there are clock radios damaged and so on, including the PC. A plug in surge protector would make no difference if the surge was large enough? Perhaps we have to clarify the extra energy being dealt with here: A lightning strike is rare. Lots of energy, it would almost certainly destroy the electronics, and a regular protector would not help. Surges from poor power distribution/faults? Surges from bad equipment IN the house? Is there any situation where a plug in protector is going to be of use if it's just connected to a PC?

 

[alex24]

I do have spec sheets.

However... Im not going to waste my time on someone who is determined to have a go at me just because I said my UPS gives me surge protection and they dont want to accept it.

Thats your problem, not mine.

Nobody is having a go at you! It's just a discussion, and your probably one of the best placed people to voice your opinion, and show us why you believe you're right. Please don't take offence, we would appreciate your further input.

End thread

That's not the question though. I'm not asking if you'd buy one, or 'when in doubt' etc. I'm interested in if they actually provide any worthwhile protection, based on evidence and facts. I'm questioning the widely held belief that they do, in light of me not knowing the answer. If you have an opinion based on any evidence please share though, don't be shy!

 

[alex24]

i agree i think they can help in some cases and in others not but for the small difference its worth it.
imagen if it dose happen and you dident spend that £2, i would be mad at myself

Can you be a bit more specific about what cases they help in and what they don't? Again, £2 is not what they cost over a normal extension, it's much more than that. I can understand why you say you'd be mad at yourself though. It sounds like how some people justify playing the lottery, despite the chances being ridiculously small. 'what if?'. An opinion not based on fact, but feeling or intuition.

 

[alex24]

Where you say 'don't know if the surge protection ever helped (prob not)' - this is what I'm trying to figure out. Plenty of people here don't hesitate to recommend them, but the recommendation is based on no real evidence as far as I can see, just an inherited notion that it's better safe than sorry. This is enough for most people, but I'm more inquisitive. I'm not being tight or anything like that.

Love the mythbusters idea. Don't get sky anymore, sure they haven't covered this already?

 

[alex24]

Again, please don't take it so personally. Nobody is insulting you here, it's just a debate.

If you can't back up your opinion with facts and science, then don't worry about it, as that's what I'm trying to get to.

The onus is on westom to show us some real UPS spec claims and prove to us why they're worthless. westom has made his points and arguments also, but it needs backing up with cold, hard evidence.

 

[alex24]

Let's keep it on topic guys.

Westom, can you show us some real surge protector specs and demonstrate why they're insufficient? It needs to be clearly and succinctly spelt out for most people to understand the concepts here.

If anyone is reading this thread and has an informed opinion on why they believe surge protection is necessary, and can back it up with facts based on real science, I'd really appreciate your input. If not one thing, this subject is a minefield of misdirection.

 

[alex24]

£20 for a surge protector which may protect my computer, or £0 for nothing that protects nothing and cost me £100 for a new PSU?

I don't disagree, and this has always been my thinking, but this point has been covered, and it's not the answer I'm looking for; it's not based on any science, just assumptions.

I think I should write to the mythbusters, nobody else can be bothered to test this!

 

[alex24]

That's in no way proof that they work though.

This topic is still yet to reach a balanced conclusion based on evidence. Jury's still out, though westom's thoughts do make a lot of sense, they are not backed up with any research. In fact, most 'research' by companies obviously suggests they are necessary so that they sell their product.

 

[alex24]

Do you have a link/reference for that paper westom?

 

[alex24]

Thanks, I'll see if I can get any more info on that.

 

[alex24]

Let's try to keep away from personal attacks guys, this is a serious discussion, I'm sure you can do better than that.

Pottsey, if you have an opinion you must be able to back it up with facts and science. State your sources and reasoning for your view, and note that empirical observations are not necessarily proof. I have had surge protectors on my PCs when surges have hit, the PCs have not been damaged, I cannot assume that they did their job as the opinion is based on no science. That is why I asked this question in the first place, my intention was not for everyone to post their experiences with surge protectors, but to find those informed on the subject who are willing to explain their viewpoints with facts and figures, appropriately explained with a source.

 

[alex24]

I have just found these two pdfs, one from NIST, and other IEEE. IEEE is more technical.

The NIST pdf seperates surges into two types, external and switching from other applications.

Both documents cover plug in surge protectors. Look at the IEEE section 2.3.2 Lead Length.

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf

http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf

Thanks very much for these links, these (particularly the IEEE document) cover most of my questions.

The Nist doc is slightly off, and obviously a little tainted by marketing bias, but generally seems correct as far as I can make sense of it.

The IEEE document there explains the issue very well, and even tells you exactly how you should set up equipment and use surge protectors.

The general message from these sources is that no single surge protector is capable of effectively protecting your devices in all situations. Protection (i.e. grounding) near the incoming utilities and proper 'bonding' seems essential in the event of lightning strikes, be that direct or indirect. You need protection on incoming AC supply and utility lines into the house that can withstand and dissipate large amounts of energy. You need protection on any devices that may suffer surges that come into the house from the outside, such as telephone cables. The aforementioned protection requires good planning in house construction and protection devices at utility entrances, which can possibly be installed by power companies etc. These are the 'whole house' protectors previously mentioned.

In addition to this, protection using 'plug in' protectors (the sort this thread concerns) will probably not protect any equipment unless there are already the above measures in place in the event of a large energy surge or strike (the effects of which can be felt up to 1.6km away if a lightning strike!). It depends on how much energy is in the system that needs to be dissipated, and in the event of strikes or even moderate to large surges on AC power, plug in protectors won't help. Same applies for a UPS as surge protection technology in them is essentially the same, they just also provide a battery backup.

Used in conjunction with whole house protectors, plug in protectors may be useful in filtering out constant overvoltages (not high, e.g. 1.5x mains) and small surges that the whole house protectors do not respond to, as they only respond at levels that may be above potentially damaging electronics inside the house (though will provide protection above this for large surges).

It is recommended that you use a plug in surge protector with every device that is of high value and potentially sensitive to small surges, though many devices have this functionality built in to an extent. I need to confirm the difference in numbers between the maximum amount of energy a device can dissipate and the max a plug in protector can. There may only be a small difference. However, the surge protector is easily compromised, and possibly worsens the problem if you are connecting your equipment outwards to other grounds or sources of surges, such as telephone, TV etc. If you use a plug in protector, it's important that all connections to the devices you wish to protect are going through the protector. The devices sit in a 'bubble' of which the only physical route out is via the protector. Therefore, a plug in surge strip with your PC would be inadequate if you're connecting RJ45 to a router, an aerial or telephone line or any thing else connected to something outside the 'bubble'. Also if you're not using 'whole house' protection, it will not protect against any significant surge. They also have to correlate and work well with your whole house protection, or they may simply conduct surges to your equipment and worsen the problem.

So are plug in surge protectors a waste of money? Not necessarily, but without other measures in place they're not doing an awful lot to protect your hardware. Don't think that the warranty will save you if your house is incorrectly grounded or open to surges, as it won't. Only failure of the protector itself will result in a legitimate claim, and the plug in protectors scope is very limited.

It was also noted in the paper that a lot of emphasis put on joule ratings is meaningless without context, and may be totally irrelevant depending on the design of the protector.