Are surge protectors a waste of money?

[AyJay]

Better safe than sorry dude...

 

[alex24]

Thanks again for the informative post westom. Your link doesnt work properly, the site may be filtered.

AyJay, I think you missed the points above!

Based on those comments, I've never recently experienced a surge, like most people in the UK I guess. In fact, I never remember replacing clock radios or such.

Where does this misconception arise from? Admiral Huddy above shared his experiences with clients who've had stuff damaged from not having a surge protector. It follows then, that other equipment in the building would be damaged. What if this is not observed? Likely cause? PC failure? What if, there are clock radios damaged and so on, including the PC. A plug in surge protector would make no difference if the surge was large enough? Perhaps we have to clarify the extra energy being dealt with here: A lightning strike is rare. Lots of energy, it would almost certainly destroy the electronics, and a regular protector would not help. Surges from poor power distribution/faults? Surges from bad equipment IN the house? Is there any situation where a plug in protector is going to be of use if it's just connected to a PC?

 

[westom]

Because the cheap surge protects are just that, cheap. There was a test done a few years back which proved most did very little and could only take one proper surge before they became nothing more than a standard 4-way.

View the circuit. A £5 power strip protector selling in a grocery store is the same protector circuit selling with expensive paint for £100 from Monster Cable. Same circuits. Numeric specs are even similar. Both make same protection claims. One is the actual costs plus a minor profit. Monster has a long history of identifying scams, then selling the same product for extreme profits.

Did you know speaker wire has polarity? Monster also sold speaker wire carefully marked for the amplifier and speaker ends. If you swap that wire, then your speakers did not sound right. And so many swore it must be true only because Monster said so. And because that wire was so expensive. Monster sold these £4 wires for £45 - because that is what Monster has a long history of doing. Identify a scam. Then sell the same thing for extreme profits. Then so many consumers will recommend it only because it costs more money.

Price is no indicator of surge protector quality. What is? View numeric specs. Show me where Monster, Belkin, et al claim to do it tens of times better? In fact, show me the spec number that even claims protection from each type of surge? Where does it even list protection from each type of surge? And good luck. They can sell a £4 protector for how much because its paint is expensive?

 

[westom]

Perhaps we have to clarify the extra energy being dealt with here: A lightning strike is rare. Lots of energy, it would almost certainly destroy the electronics, and a regular protector would not help. Surges from poor power distribution/faults? Surges from bad equipment IN the house? Is there any situation where a plug in protector is going to be of use if it's just connected to a PC?

No damage from direct lightning strikes is routine. Again, the numbers. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So the minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Sufficient to earth a direct lightning strike - and remain functional. That is what any and every effective protector must do. Earth any surge and remain functional.

Then the protector also makes lesser surges from AC lines, etc irrelevant.

No equipment in a house creates surges. The correct word is noise. That was a myth invented by plug-in protector sales brochures. If an appliance (ie refrigerator, vacuum, washing machine, and furnace) is creating surges, then it is destroying the item with the largest surge - itself. If appliances are creating surges, then you are replacing dimmer switches and digital clocks many times a day. Those devices typically do not have the superior protection routinely part of TVs and computers. The appliance generates surge must exist because it makes a large noise in a speaker? That large noise means it is maybe tens of volts. For most every appliance, hardly more than a volt. Protectors ignore voltages below 500 volts. Protection inside every appliance (including the tiny power supply for a cell phone) makes that noise irrelevant.

Worse, plug-in protectors have even compromised protection in some appliances. Yes, a protector too close to the appliance and too far from earth ground can even make damage easier.

Routine is to have direct lightning strikes without damage. Electronics atop the Empire State Building suffer about 23 direct strikes annually without damage. For the WTC, it was 40 times annually without damage. But again, it is always about the path a surge uses to earth. Nothing stops or absorbs surges. Nothing. And yet that is what the plug-in protector - at tens of times more money - is supposed to do.

The concept: Lightning struck wooden church steeples because that was the most conductive path to earth. Wood is an electrical conductor. But not a very good one. So 20,000 amps creates a high voltage. 20,000 amps times high voltage is high energy. Protection is always about the energy. High energy means the steeple was damaged.

So Franklin connoted lightning to ground via a wire and rod. Wire is more conductive. 20,000 amps on the wire was near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times near zero voltage is near zero energy. Now energy harmlessly dissipates in earth. No damage.

That is also what every protector does. Either it makes a short (near zero voltage) connection to superior earthing. Therefore no damage. Or it has virtually no earthing (ie plug-in protectors). Therefore earths a surge through less conductive items - computer, TV, furnace. Yes, a protector inside the room must earth energy somewhere. An IEEE brochure shows a plug-in protector earthing that energy 8000 volts destructively through some TV elsewhere in the room or in a nearby room.

Just like Franklin demonstrated. Either that energy connects short to earth via a near zero path. Or it is earthed 8000 volts destructively through any household appliance.

Energy is always what protection is about. No protector - nada - not one - provides protection. Either that protector can even earth surges destructively inside the building. Or that protector connects short (ie less than 3 meters) to what always provides protection - earth ground.

That URL is harmed by this server. The so many HowStuffWorks myths ere discussed in http://*******.com/2fy7u where ****** is replaced by T I N Y U R L.com . HowStuffWorks.com is the propaganda and myths (without numbers) that sells plug-in protectors.

For example - numbers. How does its few hundred joules absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. Surges at hundreds of joules does not overwhelm protection inside appliances. But if that pathetic surge destroys the protector, then myths promote that protector.

Effective protection means even direct lightning strikes are harmlessly absorbed outside the building into earth. And nobody knew the surge even existed.

One example of how routine protection from direct lightning strikes are made irrelevant when properly and less expensive solutions are implemented:
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm

 

[westom]

surge protection cheaper than new pc

Spend £20 or £80 per appiiance for a plug-in protector that does not claim protection AND sometimes can even contribute to appliance damage.

Or spend £1 per appliance for one 'whole house' protector. Over 100 years of experience even earthing direct lightning strikes without damage for how many times less money? If a computer needs protection, then so does the dishwasher, RCD, microwave, fire alarm systems (many nations now require smoke detectors to be both AC and battery powered), TVs, electric stove, clock radios, and the furnace. Either you need no protectors (because protection inside all appliances is that robust). Or you need the less expensive 'whole house' protector.

Anything that plug-in protectors might must already be inside electronics. Where does that power strip protector even claim protection from each type of surge? Sorry is to buy a protector that does not even claim protection in numeric specs. But again, where is that spec numbers that claims protection? Does not exist.

How to quickly identify ineffective protector. 1) It has no dedicated wire for the always required short connection to earth (where does energy dissipate?). 2) The manufacturer avoid all discussing of the only thing that always provides protection – earthing. Somehow that magic box will make hundreds of thousands of joules just disappear? Hardly. But that myth sure is profitable.

 

[Hotwired]

Surge protectors are not a waste of money.

I spent good money buying some and they do their job perfectly in my HV generator.

DC sparks over an inch long about 20-30 times a second. Smashing little things.

 

[James J]

I bought a belkin 8 way surge protector a few years back for £20 with the following spec:

2700 Joules
75,000 Maximum Spike Amperage
Lifetime £175,000 Connected Equipment Warranty
Lifetime £175,000 Connected Equipment warranty to insure protection for your connected equipment and give you peace of mind
Unique 180º Rotating Sockets accommodate large AC adapter blocks without covering an unused socket
8 Surge-protected Sockets supply complete, 3-line AC protection
Built-in-phone line splitter
Coaxial Gold Cable line with Ceramic Arrestor protection for DSS and Cable Modems
Safety Shutters help to protect users and their children
Safety shutters over live and neutral ports
Safeguards your telephone, modem and DSL lines, while making two connectors out of one
Electro Magnetic Interference/Radio Frequency Interference filtering for clean power
BlockSpace" Sockets provide room for large, AC adapter blocks, without covering an unused socket
Lifetime Product Warranty

Lifetime warranty and well over the power requirements to stop some of the largest surges and you can now pick them up from a rainforest webby for £17.99 lol = Bargain

 

[imhiya]

Lighting isn't your only worry, things like power cuts when it goes off or comes back on can cause a big surge. or just general surges with dodgy wiring. most houses have fuses that will stop this anyway, so there is nothing to worry about mostly.

 

[James J]

Lighting isn't your only worry, things like power cuts when it goes off or comes back on can cause a big surge. or just general surges with dodgy wiring. most houses have fuses that will stop this anyway, so there is nothing to worry about mostly.

Speaking of dodgy wiring, when we turn our kettle on downstairs the lights flicker and the microwave clock resets

New house builds using rubbish electricians ***

 

[JasonM]

Speaking of dodgy wiring, when we turn our kettle on downstairs the lights flicker and the microwave clock resets

New house builds using rubbish electricians ***

This is why I use spike protectors. I had a heater in my room, and when it tripped it took my PSU out, I don't use the heater anymore. However i'm confused now if surge protectors are helping.

I also don't understand the fuss about earth, in UK we have earth plugs, and the surge protector should just earth down this. I do understand the earth needs to be short (for better effect), but I would have thought a good surge protector would would send your typical surge down this.

 

[sosrandom]

If your not earthed your screwed.

Chances are your under £100 UPS is a SPS, which would provide no conditioning and only works with power failures buy switching really quickly.

People saying surge protectors have helped should wonder why half the stuff in their house not plugged in isn't dead.

Surge protectors don't last forever and in many cases you wont know when its stopped working. Even if they are working they may fail before the devices they're connected to.

 

[aln]

I had a system go boom about 8 years ago, used surge protectors since and it's been fine. I was running my PC quite some time without one initially though, so I think although it's unlikely, you might as well spend a couple of extra quid to protect the couple of hundered+ you've spent.

P.S. As above, you'll want to get a surge protector that your modem can connect to.

 

[westom]

This is why I use spike protectors. I had a heater in my room, and when it tripped it took my PSU out, I don't use the heater anymore. However i'm confused now if surge protectors are helping.

I also don't understand the fuss about earth, in UK we have earth plugs, and the surge protector should just earth down this.

If a heater was creating a destructive surge, where is the long list of destroyed appliances? That surge was confronting every appliance on the same breaker box. Surges that might harm dimmer switches and digital clocks must be too small to harm computers. So why was that computer's power supply so inferior? Is that heater creating 1000 volt spikes? Even Intel ATX specs say it must withstand 1000 volt spikes without damage.

If all grounds are same, then motherboard digital ground is same as motherboard analog ground, same as chassis ground, same as wall receptacle safety ground, same as TV floating ground, same as earth ground, same as ground beneath the electric substation. So you can connect a lightning rod to the motherboard ground because all grounds are electrically same. Obviously not. Electricity is not same at both ends of a wire. Wires are electronic components.

Stated repeatedly were requirements such as less than 3 meters, no sharp wire bends, and wire separated from other non-grounded wires, no splices, etc. All factors that can compromise a connection to earth because all wires are electronic components. And because those wiring ‘mistakes’ (acceptable if the ground is only a safety ground) can increase impedance.

Now numbers. Whereas a 15 meter AC wire to the breaker box is less than 0.2 ohms resistance. That same wire may be 120 ohms impedance to a surge. A trivial 100 amp surge times 120 ohms is a voltage less than 12,000 volts. If the wall receptacle is at 12,000 volts (relative to earth), then is it earth ground? Numbers that say why plug-in protectors in the IEEE brochure page 42 figure 8 show the protector earthing a surge 8000 volts destructively through a TV maybe in the other room.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. That 120 ohm impedance wire cannot connect the surge to earth. So IEEE brochure shows what we sometimes found – an appliance destroyed because that was a better connection to earth.

Same numbers also say why a lightning rod must not be earthed to the computer's ground. Again, where does energy dissipate? Why lightning rods must make a connection directly to earth that is as short as practicable – not to a computer’s ground. Those are the numbers. Critical is wire impedance; not wire resistance (both measured in ohms). Those numbers say why a protector must be connected short to earth. Why the wire must not have sharp bends, etc. Also essential if the ground wire separated from other non-ground wires. Wall receptacle grounds violate every requirement; are not earth grounds.

Essential to protection is energy not inside a building which is why reliable facilities (BT switching stations, munitions dumps, BBC broadcasting facilities, Orange towers, nuclear hardened communication stations, rocket launching bases, etc) always do extensive earthing with protectors connected short to single point ground.

Another myth is destructive power loss. Power loss or voltage reductions are harmful to motorized appliances (washing machine, refrigerator). Same low voltage may be perfectly ideal power to electronics. All electronics must work normally even when incandescent lamps are at 50% intensity. Low voltage during startup is harmful to air conditioners. But some electronics even contain circuits to intentionally create that voltage sag because low voltage is perfectly acceptable to electronics.

Any power conditioning that might be in some magic box does nothing compares to what is already inside a power supply. Power conditioners are often nothing more than surge protectors in expensive boxes. Numeric specs for many power conditioners are same as those for a grocery store protector. Power conditioner is hyped when one knows without first demanding the numbers – without asking damning questions. A majority traditionally believe only the first thing they are told. Do not do what is always required to know. Demand spec numbers.

Same spec number say electronics have ideal AC mains voltage even when incandescent bulbs are at 50% intensity. When that reality would harm a sale, reality remains unknown to those taught by retail salesmen. Only the informed would notice a power conditioner is really only a surge protector.

 

[westom]

I had a system go boom about 8 years ago, used surge protectors since and it's been fine.

So if destructive surges exist maybe once every 12 years, then the protector did nothing - protection inside every appliance is working just fine.

If you had a surge, then how many appliances were destroyed. How does a surge damage a computer that must be more robust and not damage other appliances? A damning question. An answer always begins with "Why did the surge seek earth ground via that computer?" and "Why was that energy inside the building hunting for earth via my appliances?" Only then can effective protection be installed. You own numbers suggest expensive protectors did nothing if surges occur how often? Once every how many years?

 

[FatRakoon]

I used to use a surge protector that was built into my UPS, but the UPS got to the point where it could not handle my PC. I then bought 2 UPS's and in conjunction with my Stacker, split the power as much as I could but again, the UPS could not handle the power needs.

I then realised that Im using a pair of trust UPS'

Id probably be better off without, so I disconnected them all and ran it without any protection.

2 weeks later, we had a storm.

Anyway, my Motherboard lost its LAN port and a PCI slot but survived and the Router never worked right afterwards, so, could teh trust have saved them?

I dont know?

But since then, I have decided to not cut corners, and Im running off a Galatrek UPS

 

[westom]

But since then, I have decided to not cut corners, and Im running off a Galatrek UPS

Why are you using near-zero protection? Read its numbers. Near zero. But just enough above zero so that a UPS can claim surge protection in its sales brochure. If you need protection, then why are you using a UPS that claims only near-zero protection? Because so many misguided peers - a majority - recommend it? Same number of people also knew Saddam had WMDs.

This is the protection a UPS provides:
http://www.dcmessageboards.com/APC-Battery-Backup-prot-t16760.html&p=33252

But if surges occur only once every 12 years, then the majority who knew about Saddam's WMDs also have proof that the UPS is protection. They feel. Therefore it must be true.

 

[FatRakoon]

Why are you using near-zero protection?.

What?

For many reasons Im going to ignore that post.

Main reasons:-

I am born and bred in Llanrwst.

I worked for Galatrek Llanrwst for 3 years many moons ago and I hand built many of their Power Supplies and UPS

If you really think that Galatrek UPS offer near to Zero surge protection then you are clearly not in possession of the facts.

 

[westom]

For many reasons Im going to ignore that post.
Main reasons:-

Good. Then you have spec numbers from that UPS manufacturer that lists protection from each type of surge. Post those numbers. Show me which number actually defines what protection. Post each specific numbers that shows effective protection from surges. If you know, then you can provide the reason why you know. Post the manufacturer specification numbers for protection from each type of surge.

 

[FatRakoon]

I do have spec sheets.

However... Im not going to waste my time on someone who is determined to have a go at me just because I said my UPS gives me surge protection and they dont want to accept it.

Thats your problem, not mine.

 

[jaybee]

Considering a 4-way extension with surge protector is about £2 more than one without, I think it's plain stupid not to.

It might help, it might not, but for £2 there's no reason not to.

End thread