Are surge protectors a waste of money?

[FatRakoon]

Again, you are asking me to provide proof that my UPS has Protection and you assume that there is only a tiny relay in there to protect it, you even assume the size of whatever is inside to protect it, but even though my UPS box is 9 inches high, 5 inches wide and about a foot and a half long, you assume that any surge protection is only done by way of a single relay.. And you are having a go at me and yet you are happy to assume that any extention cable with surge protection is clearly going to be perfect.

I have not made any claim that it has protected me. I never assumed this once. I am however assuming that if we did have a thunderstorm, that I would have better protection than I did last time. I do however at my house suffer from bad power, and the use of a UPS is a good idea and since using UPS's I have never had a BSOD but without one, I have had them fairly regularly.

Observation without the always required facts and numbers to justify a hypothesis is junk science. First a hypothesis must be based in fundamental and known facts. Only then can the results of an experiment (ie an observation) have validity.

I dont have the facts then. I have thrown out any paperwork and the box that it came in.
I assume therefore that anyone else out there who has kept not their packaging for their UPS and or Surge protector will also be just as wrong as I

Second, for that observation to be valid, you must also explain why other appliances without a protector were not harmed (ie dimmer switches and clock radios). Again a valid hypothesis must exist with that observation.

Again, somethign completely impossible for me, or anyone else, to answer.
When we had the last storm, the only things to get affected were my router, and the PCs Motherboard.
Considering I had aswitch also connected to the router, and 7 more PCs connectedto the switch, the switch and all other PCs were unafected, only the router and the main PC were hit.

Thats all I can say and thats the reason why I have some form of protection... Just in case.

Third, to know a UPS did protection means other appliances were destroyed by a surge. Power loss is not a surge. How do you know a surge even existed?

I have partially answered that one already.
I know power loss is not a surge, I get both, hence the need for a UPS that also protects against surges.

How do I know a surge even existed?
I am only putting 2 and 2 together here, but outside there was some great lightning. I took the camera out to try to get some photos when one lightning bolt hit the roof of our neighbour, blowing hios chimney off. At the very same time the kids started screaming at me to say the computer had blown up, I ran inside to find my router smouldering and the PC had stopped runnning.

I would say that I knew there was some kind of surge that did that.

Fourth, another reality that confuses observers: A surge protector (or UPS) connected to one appliance even earthed a surge destructively through some other appliance on the same ring.

I suppose that can happen?

I would assume that everything thats past the Surge protector should be protected however.

And finally, how does a UPS provide protection when the only thing between an appliance and AC mains is a relay?

A UPS is only that... A UPS. Its only a battery ( or more than one ) that provides power should the mains power fail.
A bog standard UPS does not provide any protection I would have thought, other than if there was some surge, it would be the UPS itself that took the force and blew, and anythign runnign off the UPS might be protected, but apart from that, a UPS does not ofer any protection.

Unless its a UPS that has surge protection built in.


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You keep asking for specs, I dont have. I have already told you the model number so go check them out yourself.

You assume that I keep making claims, I have never made any claim at all. I only said, that I got the UPS to help protect me, but given that I had already been using UPS previously ( As I have clearly said - because I need them ) that I decided to splash out and buy a much better UPS that has some built-in protection.
You are assuming that I know for a fact that the UPS I bought is the best thing since sliced bread and it will protect me from anything. I never made any such claims, I am only doing what everyone else out there is doing, and is buying something that I hope will protect me, when the next thunderstorm strikes.

If that UPS has "power protection", then list each spec number. Some anomalies it might claim to protect from. Does it compensate for bad power factor? Does it suppress harmonics? What about frequency variations? How many dBs per octave is noise filtering? Is filtering differential or common mode? How much time does it provide no power during a transition from AC power to battery? What is the percent THD of its output?

I cant.

Can anyone else who also has their own Surge protection answer this?

A UPS built as cheap as possible means a replacement battery may costs almost as much as the entire UPS. Serious UPSes that do these power protections cost many thousands of pounds. Why would a 100 quid UPS do same?

I would not expect a £100 UPS to do the same as a + £1000 one.

Again, you are assuming, because I never made such claims.

Mine however, costs a lot more than £100 also has built in surge protection that I hope will protect me.

It has already been mentioned on this site about certain dedicated Power protectors that guarantee against thousands of pounds worht of equipment dammage and these guarantees are never honoured and yet you are only having a go at me purely on the basis that I said I have a UPS to protect me "Just in case"

Its just bloody idiotic that you have clearly seen me as a target, but I am like a fool falling for your rantings and Im bored of it now.

 

[alex24]

Again, please don't take it so personally. Nobody is insulting you here, it's just a debate.

If you can't back up your opinion with facts and science, then don't worry about it, as that's what I'm trying to get to.

The onus is on westom to show us some real UPS spec claims and prove to us why they're worthless. westom has made his points and arguments also, but it needs backing up with cold, hard evidence.

 

[baron02]

I've never used UPS or surge protection, In event of a Storm all of my senstive equipment get unplugged even down to my router.

I've often considered a UPS but I could never jusitfy the cost

 

[FatRakoon]

Again, please don't take it so personally. Nobody is insulting you here, it's just a debate.

If you can't back up your opinion with facts and science, then don't worry about it, as that's what I'm trying to get to.

The onus is on westom to show us some real UPS spec claims and prove to us why they're worthless. westom has made his points and arguments also, but it needs backing up with cold, hard evidence.

Thanks mate.

I've never used UPS or surge protection, In event of a Storm all of my senstive equipment get unplugged even down to my router.

I've often considered a UPS but I could never jusitfy the cost

Most of the time, a UPS is only for JUST IN CASE use.
I use it because the electricity in my house and half our street is naff at best and we regularly get drop outs and fluctuations in the line... Most of the time its never noticeable but at night, it can be enough to make the lights flicker or the Digital clock to go to 00:00am ( we should put a new battery in ) and of course its enough to crash the PC.

So, for me, a UPS is a very good idea.

Funnily enough, I dont use any form of UPS on my LAN though?

Surge protection however, I have the basic ones that you get in Extention cables. I think that everyone should have those at the very least and while they probably offer very little in way of actual real protection, I suppose a little is better than none.

 

[leexgx]

interesting posts

right there are 2-4 types of Surge protection (that you would norm buy for home use)
there is the crapy ones that have EMI filter and some sort of upto amperage rating before they fail But most of them still work once the protection has failed they are quite bad as more spikes or high loads will be let tho
the better ones (i can only think belkin here) have Protection if it goes over the rated amperage it take its own life (lightning suppressors {'surge arrestor'} with EMI)
phone protection that's useless now a days as most use network cables, some of the over priced Surge protectors have network cable protection and Coax cable protection
if your going to buy one make sure it has lightning suppression (norm they have an Green and red light to indicate power and protection and state some sort of suppression on the back of it), note you should not plug sudden load devices on Surge protect sockets as it Shorten the life of the protection (vacuum cleaners, cookers, heaters, maybe microwaves)

most @ FatRakoon this one (you damage most likely came from the phones lines so the UPS would have not protected you unless it had phone line protection or network cable that was on the UPS)
other types of protectors you can get are Network ones that are earthed as i found out at one property these things can help from lighting damage when they hit Phone cables that can go down to ADSL routers seem to be good conductors and will divert there power down the network cables before frying and talking the pcs out with them (this happened at an work place as well but it was the PBX system and its phones that fryed and 1 pc), if your in an open area no over houses or pole's near you there is More likely an chance that you get hit with lighting then if you was in an dense area

UPS's most are Offline UPS that means that they cut in when power is over 270v or under 210v (norm settable via jumpers or digital press button) most should switch to Batt when over currant happens or under currant, Switching time is norm 30ms or less for most if you have an cheapo PSU its hold up time may not be very good and may drop off instantly or reboot the pc (think most PSUs can stay on for 250ms before they make an issue, higher end psus can hold up for upto 500ms-1 second as mine have, to bad my router cant and my cable modem as oneof then hung on me)

on an off-line UPS depending on the UPS make you should asume it has no Surge protector on it and may be recommended to Protect the UPS it self using an Surge protector

Line-interactive UPS are better as the power is always on and protects better from brownouts and over-voltage as most of them are not that high or low so it would not need to switch to bat power

if your in an spotty place where the power goes off some cheap off-line UPS are norm quite useful (TV pc VCR/PVR), in the UK most parts have basically 100% uptime on power (mite go off once every 2-3 years and they norm tell you its going off) and maybe 1-2 brownouts an year when the Grids fail to switch at the right time or substation fails

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply better read

please do not turn this into an flame war thread as well

personally i buy an Surge Protected (with lighting suppressor) leads when buying 4-8 gang sockets at most they are £10-20 as the device they are protecting is most likely cost a lot more then the lead does, maybe an protector on the network cables as well, unless your in an known area with power loss happens UPS norm not needed unless its mission critical

if an house gets hit directly with lightening any thing can happen really if the PC is power and network protected it should be ok unless it was what takes the hit it self, you can make very long threads

 

[Cyber-Mav]

i see these surge devices come with huge ass warranties such as 50 grand etc. has anyone ever made a claim from companies such as belkin for fried hardware after a surge if thier hardware didnt prevent the damage?

something tells me its not going to be straightforward in making a claim as such.

 

[FatRakoon]

Thanks Leexgx

Yes, of course you are correct in saying that in my case, it was the phone line that went pop rather than teh electricity.

Incredibly irritatingly, but I have just gone around the house, looking at the Extention cables and every one of them are surge protectors, the one behind my PC down there right now, and one of the ones upstairs, also has phone line protection... I guess that may very well have saved my Mobo & Router when it popped, but alas, I never bothered to use it even though it has it.

The two older UPS also have telephone protection and while there is 3 power outputs, only 2 are protected. On the Galatrek one, there is 4 outputs and all 4 are protected.

I have now found my spec sheets for my UPS you will be pleased to hear.

I dont know what info you may need, but anything you need to know, if its in here and I can find it, then you only have to ask.

It protects against :-
Overload / short-circuit / overvoltage & undervoltage / Low Battery and temperature

Surge capability = IEC 801-5 6kV 1.2/50μs; 3kA 8/20μs

Oh, but thats obvious ???!!!!

Anyway, I am now running the Telephone cable through both the Extention lead and the UPS ( That will probably degrade the signal knowing my luck )

 

[jak731]

I feel like condensing down westom's points to the basics of what he is saying; plug in surge protectors are a scam and you're better off without, surge protection needs doing properly or not at all. His technical explanations for this seem sound. The proper way of getting rid of a damaging surge is to give it a safe route to earth, plug in protectors can't do this because of the resistance of the earth cable over distances more than 2-3 metres is very high to currents that exist during a surge. This results in the surge finding a shorter route through appliances anyway. Or worse making the MOVs in the surge protector catch fire.

I don't think westom is trying to attack you fatrakoon, seems he's just fed up of people recommending something which doesn't do anything against surges.

This correspondence that westom found speaks volumes to me:

> I got a Belkin surge protector with phone line protection soley for Tivo
> purposes.
> Yet my Tivo's modem still failed. And the '$20,000 connected devices
> warranty' did not help me. I jumped through many hoops, including
> finding the original recept for the surge protector (just under a year old)
> and I sent my surge protector to Belkin (paid for shipping), and was
> denied my warranty. They gave me a ton of crap, including that it was
> null and void b/c the Tivo was also connected to the coax line for
> cable ...
> Eventually it boiled down to a line in the warranty that said "Belkin at
> it's sole discretion can reject any claim for any reason".

Their warranty is a joke if that is true, I currently use a few belkin surge protectors on my equipment but now I think I was fooled by the marketing when I bought them.

Are you an electrician westom? What is the cheapest house protector you would consider using? You have convinced me they are the only way to go if your bothered about surges but it's a fairly high one off cost, especially if you are renting.

 

[Meridiusuk]

I have noticed that if you plug an amplifier into a surge protector it sounds rather naff. So they do do something, just something negative.

is this true at all ? Has anyone found that these can cause poor sound

I was thinking of going for a belkin av isolator and surge protector 8 way for £50 is this not worth it then. For my computer and home theater system

thanks for any info or help

 

[westom]

Are you an electrician westom? What is the cheapest house protector you would consider using? You have convinced me they are the only way to go if your bothered about surges but it's a fairly high one off cost, especially if you are renting.

If I was an electrician, I would not know these many facts about electricity. Electricians are technicians; learn the rules made as simple as possible so that electrical failures need not happen. Simple? Yes. And notice how much training it takes to learn these simple rules based in the science and plenty of experience. Just learning the rules justifies sparky’s higher prices.

Moving on. In many nations, protectors are routine and installed for free on phone lines where those wires enter a building. Not true in the UK where surges as so less frequent. An earth protector at the master socket is effective protection.

Keison (cited previously) is one of cheapest solutions in the UK. Some power utilities may offer protectors that are located behind the meters.

Or attempt a kludge solution. Cut a protector power cord as short as possible (because every meter shorter is essential). Find a receptacle on the ring that is closes to the power board. Now a protector is closer to earth ground.

Meanwhile, find a receptacle on that ring that is farthest from circuit breakers and earth ground. That receptacle should power protected appliances. Same solution: protector as close as possible to earth. And distant from electronics. Both mean increased protection. This kludge solution is compromised. But superior to anything that might be both adjacent to an appliance and too far from earth ground.

 

[westom]

I have now found my spec sheets for my UPS you will be pleased to hear. ...
It protects against :-
Overload / short-circuit / overvoltage & undervoltage / Low Battery and temperature
Surge capability = IEC 801-5 6kV 1.2/50μs; 3kA 8/20μs

Those are IEC waveforms that a protector might conduct. Nothing says anything about protection. Where does that current then continue through? Also not dicussed.

Notice spike durations numbers. Relay in a UPS take milliseconds to open. Surge defined as done in microseconds. The switchover from AC mains to batteries is too slow. Those duration numbers also say why wire length (to earth) must be so short (ie 'less than 3 meters').

Power distribution boards (even without protector components) must protect from overloads and short circuits. Overvoltage is made irrelevant by electronic supplies. Supply is a regulator that makes significant AC voltage variations irrelevant. That is its job. So what UPS functions are left? (Did it discuss EMI/RFI/EMC?)

Undervoltage. Electronics must work normally even when incandescent bulbs are at 50% intensity. So that voltage never drops lower, a UPS switches to battery before voltage gets that low. Purpose a typical UPS (ie switch to battery at 210 volts): provide temporary power during extreme sags and blackouts.

Above are some of many electrical anomalies. An anomaly addressed by a typical UPS - temporary power during blackouts and extreme brownouts. A function useful for saving data on a desktop. Those UPS solutions already exist in laptops.

The point. Many tech numbers are missing so that weaknesses and discrepancies would not be apparent. So that popular myths can live on. One significant benefit: provide temporary power when voltage is too low or zero.

Why is a UPS so inexpensive – not thousands of quid? Its simple function is to provide temporary (and often dirty) power. Other functions are performed even by non-surge protector power boards. Those specs do not claim surge protection. Apparently do not even discuss output power (that is often so ‘dirty’ in battery backup mode). It does not perform miracles. None of those numbers claim surge protetion. Some numbers demonstrate how fast a surge does damage - microseconds. UPS simply provides temporary power.

 

[Stelly]

I have one just incase, as power surges are not covered by home insurance and so I'm definately glad to have one!

Stelly

 

[shahpor]

Had a power spike when someone in my home accidently turned off the power while my computer was on.

In the end, I need a new CPU, motherboard, Graphics card and Hard drive!

It wasn't the first time my computer had been unplugged abruptly, but it is just one of those random chances.

I was thinking of something like this?

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=UP-017-AP&groupid=702&catid=55&subcat=1208

That way, it serves a dual purpose in case the power is cut remotely.

Have had a few of those over the years, even though I live in London.

 

[westom]

Had a power spike when someone in my home accidently turned off the power while my computer was on.

In the end, I need a new CPU, motherboard, Graphics card and Hard drive!

Power off (to hardware) is exactly same when power is removed. For example, shutdown, someone yanking the power cord, power cut off by a wall switch, or power removed the utility are exactly same power off to hardware. Yours is a perfect example of junk science reasoning. You saw something. Did not learn how electronics work. Then automatically converted wild speculation into a fact.

Power off is not a surge. That also should be obvious. Surges are high voltage. Power off is low voltage. Another reason why your conclusion is junk science reasoning.

For example, they left their computer always on. When it was finally powered down, it would not boot. So they also used junk science. They also said power off is harmful. I fixed that supply by finding and replacing the only defective part. A pullup resistor that is always powered when the computer is on. But whose only function is to bootstrap the power supply controller during power on. Due to too many hours of operation, that pullup resistor failed. Many months later when they powered off, the defect resistor meant their computer would not power back on. So they used junk science reasoning. Used only observation to ‘know’ something.

Whereas they used junk science, I used principles taught in junior high science to identify the only reason for failure. A manufacturing defect that was apparent years later because they left the computer on 24/7.

Power off did not cause your damage. Other reasons could explain it. But power off did not cause damage AND power cycling does not cause surges. Conclusions only from observation are, by definition, junk science reasoning. Unexpected power off never damaged minimally sufficient hardware.

 

[westom]

I have one just incase, as power surges are not covered by home insurance and so I'm definately glad to have one!

Which means you have no protection.

 

[james.miller]

oh westom, you don't 'alf talk in riddles

 

[westom]

oh westom, you don't 'alf talk in riddles

If it befuddles you, then you ask questions to clarify the confusion. A cheapshot is your post. You don't like it? Therefore if must be false? Nonsense. An honest poster would have asked some simple and damning questions. You don't. Cheapshot.

 

[james.miller]

it wasn't a cheapshot, it was a joke.

obviously it's beneath you.

 

[westom]

it wasn't a cheapshot, it was a joke.

If it was a joke, then it was funny. If it was funny, then it would be in jneutron's recently read book on electric motors.

 

[james.miller]

or, more likely, you haven't the foggiest idea what a friendly joke actually is.