I think the bigger worry, from their perspective, was that this completely blacked out van could have been full of insurgents armed to the teeth, ready to take their chopper down. There was nothing to mark it as a medical vehicle or anything of the sort, nobody attempted to communicate that they were unarmed. To be honest I think in a similar situation I'd be quite eager to get rid of any potential threats ASAP, too, not that I think that'd be the right course of action - then I don't think I would join the armed forces anyway.
Wikileaks releases apache footage.
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I mentioned it further up.
I'm more disgusted by the US military action ex post to be honest. Refusal to provide evidence, investigation outcomes etc etc.
How exactly do you expect and apache to collect the wounded?
By using a radio to call in the same people they did later in on the video.
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Not quite how it happened is it?
The ground crew reported that they where in a completly differenet area of the map than they actually where.
As such they where told there was no way they could be friendly
How exactly do you expect and apache to collect the wounded?
Ground troops were called and were on scene within 8 minutes.
I only know this as i saw the video earlier.
So you're saying they should have done what they did?
Well preferably before killing everyone yes..
Except they shot after the vehicles doors were opened, revealing... well, nothing of the sort.
How exactly do you expect and apache to collect the wounded?
At all times, and particularly after an engagement, Parties to the conflict shall, without delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the wounded and sick, to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment, to ensure their adequate care, and to search for the dead and prevent their being despoiled.
The Apache crew did not take all possible measures to protect the wounded - quite the opposite in fact by firing upon civilians who came to assist the wounded.
They shall be treated humanely and cared for by the Party to the conflict in whose power they may be, without any adverse distinction founded on sex, race, nationality, religion, political opinions, or any other similar criteria. Any attempts upon their lives, or violence to their persons, shall be strictly prohibited; in particular, they shall not be murdered or exterminated, subjected to torture or to biological experiments; they shall not willfully be left without medical assistance and care, nor shall conditions exposing them to contagion or infection be created.
Apache crew breached highlighted areas above, and to quote from Article 18:
The military authorities shall permit the inhabitants and relief societies, even in invaded or occupied areas, spontaneously to collect and care for wounded or sick of whatever nationality. The civilian population shall respect these wounded and sick, and in particular abstain from offering them violence.
No one may ever be molested or convicted for having nursed the wounded or sick.
The Apache crew murdered the civilians who came to the aid of the wounded and THIS above all is wrong and should see them in jail.
Just want to say that I am in no way defending what happened, but I would like to know what happened before.
What if they had been fired at earlier by a group of people that matched them?
Or if they had a report that some ground troops had taken fire from people in the area?
What if they had been fired at earlier by a group of people that matched them?
Or if they had a report that some ground troops had taken fire from people in the area?
A Royal Navy Lynx was shot down by infared missile in Iraq in 2006...
http://www.mod.uk/defenceinternet/d...inquiryshowsbasralynxwasshotdownbymissile.htm
In 2003 a DHL cargo plane was also almost downed by an IR missile....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Baghdad_DHL_attempted_shootdown_incident
Not a regular occurance but a threat that shouldn't be ignored.
Missile launchers are generally large tubes, and look very different to RPG launchers. A difference that can be easily seen on optics like those on Apache.
Or they took the meausre to stop the random people despoiling the corpses.
Being shot does not really breach "treating humanly" as that;s what you tend to do in wars.
And i get the feeling that is refering to PoW's/well after combat not during combat. Otherwise you could never shoot at an enemy as it would be an attempt on his life.
No the apache crew killed what they belived to be hostile forces.
They did not kill people saying "oh look some kind heartyed civilians have come to treat them lets shoot them"
So they did as they where suposed to then.
unlikely considering the way that they ran over the journalists body in a humvee!
this is what happens when you take renegade American kids , train them to kill , and then give them millions of dollars worth of gear to do it with
like others in this thread i know people in the forces who absolutely dread working with the US forces. constant fear of death by incompetence or getting locked up
An Apache is designed to engage targets from a very great distance to avoid it being under threat from RPG's and the like. Which is obvious from the delay of the firing and the shells hitting the targets.
I don't think one has ever been shot down (recently at least), one was hit, and the pilot didn't even notice until they landed and there was some damage to part of the chopper.
With regard to the video, as has been said, the language and attitude does seem quite harsh, however, unless you have been in that situation, with your life on the line (not in a Helicopter but that might not be the only thing you've done) you really can't have any idea of what it's like.
As far as I can see, the guy leaning around the corner could well have an RPG, as it looks like it is over his shoulder, although they should have waited longer and verified it more clearly. Some of the other guys "appear" to have what look like Rifles, people saying they are obviously cameras are probably only doing so because they know what they are beforehand.
Most people sat at home chilling watching TV/on the computer in England and America have no clue what war is really like (I don't either personally). I can only expect you and your mates are bound to have a bit of a banter about events, and you probably will be slightly desensitized to the situations that unfold before you.
The only bit that seemed quite out of place was when he was hoping the guy would pick up his gun, however, at that point he assumed that he was a terrorist, so would have wanted to finish him off, for a variety of obvious reasons.
By the looks of it, yes, they lied. If they really did think that they were terrorists though they would have been inclined to shoot.
I am still not condoning what happened though.
I must start by saying it was shocking watching that video, and not something id want to do again.
But after getting over the initial shock and collecting my thoughts i don't think its as bad as everyone is making out.
In that situation, anyone with a gun is likely to be someone that has or might kill one of your friends, you want an excuse to get them before they get you. They are trained to kill, they aren't trained to review the video evidence, take stills, zoom in on the photo, collect evidence and decide what the right thing to do is.
They were there to search and destroy threats. When he said possible RPG i looked and thought that he might be right, someone kneeling down behind a wall with a tubular object. He couldn't pause the video and it was going to take them a while to circle around. Once that had been spotted they thought they had found a serious threat to any helicopter or ground troops that came near, they had to be destroyed.
Before this point when they just saw AK's they wanted to eliminate them but the spotting of the RPG is what i feel gave him the destructive mind set afterwards.
If this was a gang of 8 with several automatic weapons and an RPG that minivan that several people piled out of was more likely to be other members of the same, with similar items inside the van and there to rescue their men.
By destroying them another threat was eliminated. Sure its ok to sit here and zoom in on 2 small blurs in the window after finding out their was kids inside.
Sure it was horrible when the way he was speaking was like a game, but in that situation if you are too close to the realization you are destroying someones life etc you aren't going to be able to do your job properly.
Distancing yourself from reality is a damn good thing to do. Still probably haunts him when he has a moment to think about things at a later date, but he will of been taught that hesitation is the opportunity for his own friends to die.
I'm not in anyway saying i agree with the events in the video but i think people are really over reacting.
If we saw video footage of all aspects of the war there would be thousands of things much much worse than this. This doesn't make it any less wrong, but we are watching this video in completely the wrong context. I'm pretty sure if you spent a few months coming close to death, your friends dying in front of you, and you watched this video back then you would be thinking good ****ing riddance.
But after getting over the initial shock and collecting my thoughts i don't think its as bad as everyone is making out.
In that situation, anyone with a gun is likely to be someone that has or might kill one of your friends, you want an excuse to get them before they get you. They are trained to kill, they aren't trained to review the video evidence, take stills, zoom in on the photo, collect evidence and decide what the right thing to do is.
They were there to search and destroy threats. When he said possible RPG i looked and thought that he might be right, someone kneeling down behind a wall with a tubular object. He couldn't pause the video and it was going to take them a while to circle around. Once that had been spotted they thought they had found a serious threat to any helicopter or ground troops that came near, they had to be destroyed.
Before this point when they just saw AK's they wanted to eliminate them but the spotting of the RPG is what i feel gave him the destructive mind set afterwards.
If this was a gang of 8 with several automatic weapons and an RPG that minivan that several people piled out of was more likely to be other members of the same, with similar items inside the van and there to rescue their men.
By destroying them another threat was eliminated. Sure its ok to sit here and zoom in on 2 small blurs in the window after finding out their was kids inside.
Sure it was horrible when the way he was speaking was like a game, but in that situation if you are too close to the realization you are destroying someones life etc you aren't going to be able to do your job properly.
Distancing yourself from reality is a damn good thing to do. Still probably haunts him when he has a moment to think about things at a later date, but he will of been taught that hesitation is the opportunity for his own friends to die.
I'm not in anyway saying i agree with the events in the video but i think people are really over reacting.
If we saw video footage of all aspects of the war there would be thousands of things much much worse than this. This doesn't make it any less wrong, but we are watching this video in completely the wrong context. I'm pretty sure if you spent a few months coming close to death, your friends dying in front of you, and you watched this video back then you would be thinking good ****ing riddance.