For those of you that don't believe in global warming

Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
Secondly, I think the raise in CO2 concentration has more to do with with the raise in the population than our way of life.

Yes I agree 100% snowdog, it is only obvious. The other factor is deforestation and the natural "evolution" of the land that has possibly caused a further increase in co2 due to there being less plant life.

1. The first plot (going back 500 million years) has lines for computer models (a model is only as good as you program it) and points taken from measurements by Royer et al, who looked at carbonate levels in the sea (quite a heavy read here). They propose that carbonate levels are much more reliable than atmospheric CO2, and that variations in solar flux are much less important.

Solar flux ? right, so you are measuring co2 in the sea and now that is what you base your correlation on ? this leads you to think that co2 has a direct effect on temperature ?

No scientists tweak data and get away with it.

This is the sort of gullible mentality that believes any science that it comes across, as long as it is rubber stamped.

6. Not necessarily. The proportion of gases in the atmosphere is crucial to life. The atmospheres of Mars and Venus are over 95% CO2, and as far as we know are inhospitable to life. The Earth is unique in that it has an oxidising (lots of O2) atmosphere unlike the other planets, which are oxidised (CO2). So I would say, better to not mess with the atmosphere at all, it's a very fragile set up.

Of course there is a balance in the atmosphere but when we have over 70% nitrogen and co2 makes up a very small percentage of the atmosphere and has a natural way of removing it self from the atmosphere, i just can not see the reason for the emphasis on co2 in this context.

How exactly do we know the atmospheric make up of mars and venus again ? Is it through heat signature ? infared ?
 
Individual animals, sometimes.
Some animal population elsewhere: No, I have nothing to do, and will never have anything to do with a tiger, why would I care about tigers ?

Would you care if an entire species of another animal became extinct because of human actions, such as dogs or cats?
 
Would you care if an entire species of another animal became extinct because of human actions, such as dogs or cats?

Of course he wouldn't. He's a very selfish, conceited boy and he's proven this time and time again. He does not give a **** about anything or anyone else as long as he's okay. Sounds like a typical teenager to me.
 
Would you care if an entire species of another animal became extinct because of human actions, such as dogs or cats?

I don't know, that is pretty much impossible to happen because we breed them though. But I'd probably care more about other people who did have them as pets... I like cats and dogs but I'm not exactly sure how I'd feel, perhaps guilty since they bring good company ( unlike wild tigers).
 
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Yes I agree 100% snowdog, it is only obvious. The other factor is deforestation and the natural "evolution" of the land that has possibly caused a further increase in co2 due to there being less plant life.

I don't understand this.

Solar flux ? right, so you are measuring co2 in the sea and now that is what you base your correlation on ? this leads you to think that co2 has a direct effect on temperature ?

Solar flux is just the radiation reaching us from the sun. A lot of it is visible light, a good amount infra red, ultra violet etc. Here is a diagram of the solar energy budget http://www.optocleaner.com/images/Solar-Radiation-Budget-650.jpg

Yes, this guy must have noticed that carbonates in the sea were a good indicator of atmospheric CO2. The carbon cycle is a schematic for how carbon might get from the air to the water, to plants, to rocks etc. We know CO2 has an effect on the temperature. The sun emits mostly visible light, which penetrates the atmosphere easily. This light reaches the surface of the Earth. A little is reflected, but most of it is absorbed. The Earth much cooler than the sun, so it emits radiation not in the visible (like the Sun) but in the infra red (heat). Now this infra red radiation goes up into the atmosphere, but the atmosphere is not so transparent to infra red light, and most of it is absorbed rather than getting out. In this way, heat is kept in. This is the "greenhouse effect", and the reason that life exists here at all, as it would be much much colder otherwise. However too much CO2 traps too much heat, which is why Venus and Mars are so hot. There are other "greenhouse gasses" too.

This is the sort of gullible mentality that believes any science that it comes across, as long as it is rubber stamped.

It depends on the stamp. Generally a paper coming from people/an institution with a good reputation can be trusted. And stuff on websites/youtube cannot. I suppose you are more likely to trust news from a major newspaper than a flyer you are given on the street? If you don't trust anyone you won't get anywhere.

Of course there is a balance in the atmosphere but when we have over 70% nitrogen and co2 makes up a very small percentage of the atmosphere and has a natural way of removing it self from the atmosphere, i just can not see the reason for the emphasis on co2 in this context.

Good point. Concentration of gasses is usually expressed in ppm, which stands for parts per million. So CO2 of 400 ppm means for every one million molecules in the atmosphere, on average 400 of them are carbon dioxide. The plots in post 101 show that we think the concentration of CO2 was in the thousands of ppm 500 million years ago, but has been 200-300 ppm for twice as long as humans have been around. This 300 in every million is tiny, which is why the fact that it is now nearly 400 since the industrial revolution is a big deal. It hasn't been this high for over 400,000 years. And that's in just 150 short years.

How exactly do we know the atmospheric make up of mars and venus again ? Is it through heat signature ? infared ?

Another good question. I guess they probably look at what are called spectra. If there is a lot of CO2, then certain frequencies of light will not be reaching us, as the CO2 molecules are absorbing them (so certain frequencies of infra red will be missing, among many others).
 
I don't know, that is pretty much impossible to happen because we breed them though. But I'd probably care more about other people who did have them as pets... I like cats and dogs but I'm not exactly sure how I'd feel, perhaps guilty since they bring good company ( unlike wild tigers).

So basically you don't care about other wild animals that face extinction because we haven't domesticated them?

Ok...
 
So basically you don't care about other wild animals that face extinction because they aren't of any use to us or needed on our world and we have nothing to do with them or are plaguing and in the way of humans ?
Fixed.

Why do some people draw the line from a particular point if we are on about living creatures ?
Do you care about virusses and bacteria that cause disease ?
Do you care about mosquito's, bed bugs, pinworms, and other parasites.
Do you care about grasshoppers, locust, or any animal that might ruin out crops ?
Do you care about the rats who would eat your food stocks ( or did in egypt). Or the rats caught by your cat. For many rats are a loved pet, but for many others, rats are a plague that needs to be dealt with.

Where do YOU draw the line about caring about specific living creatures, and why ?
What makes a tiger so much more special for you than say a bed bug ?
 
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If they're nothing to do with us, why are they becoming extinct?
Why do some people draw the line from a particular point if we are on about living creatures ?
Do you care about virusses and bacteria that cause disease ?
Do you care about mosquito's, bed bugs, pinworms, and other parasites.
Do you care about grasshoppers, locust, or any animal that might ruin out crops ?
Do you care about the rats who would eat your food stocks ( or did in egypt). Or the rats caught by your cat.

Where do YOU draw the line about caring about specific living creatures, and why ?
What makes a tiger so much more special for you than say a bed bug ?

I don't draw the line anywhere. You just have the selfish naive viewpoint that if a species doesn't affect you, it shouldn't exist?
 
Snowdog, I think you need a reality and perspective check.

Humans do not own the planet, nor do we have a god-given right to do what we like with it. We are not special, we are just another animal that has happened to develop the ability to ask 'Why?' as opposed to a new set of teeth or the ability to live in anoxic habitat. Stop flattering yourself.
 
If they're nothing to do with us, why are they becoming extinct?


I don't draw the line anywhere. You just have the selfish naive viewpoint that if a species doesn't affect you, it shouldn't exist?

Because they can't survive in changing conditions ?

No, you don't understand, I don't care if they exist or not, not saying they shouldn't, but if a species can't survive on it's own then why would you care?

And yes you obviously draw the line somewhere, don't tell me you feel guilty about the bacteria in your body that make you sick. Why don't you want to admit your line for caring about living beings is somewhere around animals, or mammals, or anything non insect or whatever ?

Humans do not own the planet, nor do we have a god-given right to do what we like with it.
That is your opinion, in my opinion we do. We already do what we want with it.
 
What makes you so certain that humans can survive huge change? By your logic, the cockroach is king.

Humans despite what you like to believe, aren't as hardy as you'd like to make out. We're very vulnerable. Worst still, we're self-destructive. Hardly contender for the gold-medal.
 
We know CO2 has an effect on the temperature.

We do ?

I would say that plane emissions (which don't look like they are CO2 emissions) have more of impact on temperature than the PPM reading of co2. Have you seen the ppm readings taken from the amazon jungle ?

There are other "greenhouse gasses" too.

Why don't we have an act on-green house gasses.org then ? instead we have an actonco2... Wouldn't an increase in any of the atmospheric gasses, green house or not, potentially cause climate intensity and eventually kill life.

Generally a paper coming from people/an institution with a good reputation can be trusted.

Reputation can be bought and we all know how scientists like the big lab budgets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groen View Post
Yes I agree 100% snowdog, it is only obvious. The other factor is deforestation and the natural "evolution" of the land that has possibly caused a further increase in co2 due to there being less plant life.
I don't understand this.

From my understanding plants "breathe" co2 and exhale oxygen and we do the opposite. So the increase in human population and the simultaneous reduction in plant life has caused the increase in co2. Not fossil fuels. Why would a warming climate be a bad thing, Sure if we saw a sharp increase in temperature and people were dieing all over the place, then your concern would be justified. But we have had one of the coldest winters for decades. Looking at some data the temps and the sea level and everything has been pretty much the same since the start of recorded history. thousands of years. there might have been fluctuations but the graph looks like a wave not a hockey stick.

I wanted a co2 meter so i could go behind a car exhaust and take a reading of the ppm. but they cost too much
 
I don't know, that is pretty much impossible to happen because we breed them though. But I'd probably care more about other people who did have them as pets... I like cats and dogs but I'm not exactly sure how I'd feel, perhaps guilty since they bring good company ( unlike wild tigers).

There was something here about "wanting humans to live as comfortably as possible at all costs" but it was edited out.

A desire for your fellow humans to be content is a good thing, and the main reason we are so widespread today compared to more aggressive animals. "Humans are self tamed apes".

This attitude is one step up from an awareness of your country or race. And only one step away from species awareness, where you look out for all life, not just your species.

There is a buddhist story. A man is walking in the jungle and comes across a fimly of tigers (quite fitting lol) a mother tiger and a load of new born baby tigers. The mother is completely exhausted and can't even get up. The man runs away, frightened, but then realises that the tiger and her cubs will certainly die, as she is too exhausted to fetch them food. He goes back and offers himself to the tiger, as an entire family of tigers will live and the cost of his single life. Upon resolving to do this the tiger becomes Budhha and he is enlightened.

I'm not lecturing here, no way I would feed myself to a tiger! I'm not at that stage quite yet lol.

because they aren't of any use to us or needed on our world and we have nothing to do with them or are plaguing and in the way of humans ?
On the contrary, without the tiger it is likely another animal would become dominant. Who knows what effect that could have? Removing an animal or plant from the ecosystem can have a huge knock on effect. Thus, everything is related to everything else.

Where do YOU draw the line about caring about specific living creatures, and why ?
What makes a tiger so much more special for you than say a bed bug ?
A good point. Indeed Jainism takes it as far as is realistically possible, by wearing a cloth over their mouth to avoid inhaling insects and sweeping the path in front of them to avoid stepping on insects. Where you draw the line is a very important personal choice.
 
What makes you so certain that humans can survive huge change? By your logic, the cockroach is king.
Well, perhaps he is then. But I think that with our current technology we could survive even a huge change, I mean we are able to create artificial life support systems. As long as we have a source of energy we can use it to survive, on earth, or elsewhere.
Humans despite what you like to believe, aren't as hardy as you'd like to make out. We're very vulnerable. Worst still, we're self-destructive. Hardly contender for the gold-medal.

I'm not denying that. I am sad about the way humans behave to each other ( and my own behavior to other people too, obviously I'm no better than anyone else, I easily get wound up over trivial things).
 
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Well, perhaps he is then. But I think that with our current technology we could survive even a huge change, I mean we are able to create artificial life support systems. As long as we have a source of energy we can use it to survive, on earth, or elsewhere.


I'm not denying that.

Really? We can bearly survive a heat-wave in the summer or a colder than average winter.

What happens when we factor in retreating coast-lines? Mass-flooding and other high-intensity weather events? What happens when mass emigration occurs? How mightly will our concept of 'border' and nationalism be then?

If we survive anything it'll be purely because of the numbers game, not through our 'amazing' ingenuity.

What happens if our atmosphere becomes too CO2 rich and carbon-based rather than hydrological? I think you need to realise just how dependant we are on the planet remaining very similar to what it is now; we've evolved mutually to co-exist within the current framework. Even something as 'simple' as a flora's phenology being altered can have deversating impacts on the food-web and therefore us.

We are not in complete control, not yet. Only when we finally blast off and colonise other worlds will I conceed that humanity's future is secure.
 
Snowdog, I think you need a reality and perspective check.

Humans do not own the planet, nor do we have a god-given right to do what we like with it. We are not special, we are just another animal that has happened to develop the ability to ask 'Why?' as opposed to a new set of teeth or the ability to live in anoxic habitat. Stop flattering yourself.

What happened to post of the week?
 
Really? We can bearly survive a heat-wave in the summer or a colder than average winter.
Exaggeration?

What happens when we factor in retreating coast-lines? Mass-flooding and other high-intensity weather events? What happens when mass emigration occurs? How mightly will our concept of 'border' and nationalism be then?
We have the industrial power to build defenses.
As for borders and nationalism, I believe the world should be unified, there should be no borders between humans, and I really dislike nationalism.

If we survive anything it'll be purely because of the numbers game, not through our 'amazing' ingenuity.
Our numbers are because of our amazing ingenuity, there wouldn't be nearly 7 billion people if we didn't know how to combat disease.



What happens if our atmosphere becomes too CO2 rich and carbon-based rather than hydrological? I think you need to realise just how dependant we are on the planet remaining very similar to what it is now; we've evolved mutually to co-exist within the current framework. Even something as 'simple' as a flora's phenology being altered can have deversating impacts on the food-web and therefore us.
I know too little on this subject, but I think the risk is acceptable.

We are not in complete control, not yet. Only when we finally blast off and colonise other worlds will I conceed that humanity's future is secure.

We already blast off to the earth orbit and can sustain life in space, but I agree this needs to be sped up and expanded dramatically, I think the budgets of all the space agency's in the world should at least be quadrupled, and the space agency's should work with each other rather than against each other, this is one of the few things I'm actually willing to pay more tax for.
 
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No, but it can be powered using bio-diesel or ethanol fuel, which are largely carbon neutral.


Far from carbon neutral, and if you plan on using it for a large portion of your energy needs going to make world hunger a hell of a lot worse, which i suppose will be sort of good as it will kill a few hundred million so there's more to go around.

and i'm pretty sure you could never run a massive shipping engine on bio-diesel, they run on very thick and heavy fuel oils.
 
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