Both parties are capable of fixing the economy, so I don't see this as an "either/or" issue.
Poll: *** 2010 General Election Result & Discussion ***
- Thread starter Cosimo
- Start date
Both parties are capable of fixing the economy, so I don't see this as an "either/or" issue.
Suspended
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 9,480
If you look back through history, there are a multitude of examples where one particular system of governance has been in place for hundreds of years, only to be replaced by something else. Change happens I guess.
You are 100% right in my view. The economy should be the major concern of the day. As long as PR is dealt with in the medium term, and we all know exactly when that will happen, then I am happy.
Associate
- Joined
- 2 Feb 2008
- Posts
- 777
As in the periodic swings from left to right politics? If so I agree with you there definatley.
Soldato
- Joined
- 7 Jul 2009
- Posts
- 16,234
- Location
- Newcastle/Aberdeen
And when you look at the situation in say Greece compared to our own the recovery has been damn near miraculous.
And how would a PR system of changed that?
People here PR and go great. Reality is different. This is something that needs to be looked over very carefully and lots of different models considered before any move away from current system.
And compared to rest of Europe pretty rubbish and lets not forget the fact we should not of been in anywhere near of a problem as we were. if labour had sensible policys in a time of boom. Lets also realise that the recover is rocky and could well fail.
Associate
- Joined
- 30 Nov 2003
- Posts
- 2,211
No, they're not. Nobody in the western world is capable of 'fixing' the economy.
The massive pensions liability is going to be the biggest problem in the next decade or two. That's £2.5 TRILLION~ that needs paying for, somehow.
Add onto that our personal debt, the PFI schemes, the cost of the bailouts and government debt, the deficit AND the unfolding Sovereign debt crisis and we are well and truely raped. The biggest problem is that nobody will be able to stop it once it starts to unravel.
If a deal falls through because of a refusal to consider a referendum on voting reform there deserves to be a proper backlash against the Tories - from Cameron's initial speech, the concessions in mind seemed more than capable to enable the LDs and Tories to work together apart from the glaringly pathetic offer on voting reform.
PR isn't being suggested as the model to solve all problems like the economy blah blah blah, it is being proposed as a model to fix one problem - the persistent disenfranchisement of a large percentage of the electorate - with a very obvious solution, a Parliament formed by members which more fairly represent of the voting public.
PR isn't being suggested as the model to solve all problems like the economy blah blah blah, it is being proposed as a model to fix one problem - the persistent disenfranchisement of a large percentage of the electorate - with a very obvious solution, a Parliament formed by members which more fairly represent of the voting public.
Last edited:
No sorry, the onus is on you.
Labour as royally ****ed up this country, please don't tell me you plan to deny that??
not being in as bad a position as Greece isn't what most people would call a miracle, besides we still owe £160 billion
£160 Bn to who? £160 Bn is our annual budgetary deficit. The plan is for us to owe over £1400 Bn by 2014.
What would you say the required set of events are before a referendum? A change to PR, in my opinion, would be a very significant constitutional change that both the experts and electorate would really need to read up on before making a choice. I'd say the outcome of that referendum is more important than the outcome of half a dozen general elections.
I'd really like an independent review that literally draws up a list of key pro's and con's, recommends a single "best" system and presents a Yes/No vote to the electorate.
Last edited:
Burden of proof not on me, I'm not the one with an irrational hatred
Let's look at how the labour have helped the poor: For a start there was the 10p tax mess, stealth taxes increased on unprecedented levels (fuel duty being a classic being rasied 4 times in 2 years). Then there is the wonderful fiscal drag which hurts the poorest earners the harest. Not really a party for the working man, and yet so many still vote for them over the "nasty tories", it just doesn't compute.
Last edited:
Associate
- Joined
- 30 Nov 2003
- Posts
- 2,211
What? So you're saying that in dealing with the economic crisis facing us, the Conservatives will make the rich suffer to protect the poor? Are you actually mental?
I'm not denying that (New) Labour has ****ed up this country, but to claim that the Tories will in some how put it all right without the worst off in society suffering more so than the rich is just incorrect.
Soldato
- Joined
- 7 Jul 2009
- Posts
- 16,234
- Location
- Newcastle/Aberdeen
The fact that we have a similar sized deficit to them and things have barely changed in our everyday life and don't look set to that much definitely is.
The poor are far worse off under labour. Go look at the stats.
Which exact parts of torrie policy makes the poor worse off?
My god you are monumentally stupid.
Unite Union? Heard of them? Who do they bankroll?
Get with the times you myopic fool, all of the major parties are bankrolled. Whether it's by non-dom peers (Labour and Con) or alleged criminals (Lib Dems), or just trade unions (Labour).
I suppose you don't have any idea of the existance of a certain Lord Paul, what he did to get his billions, the fact he's a major donor to the Labour party in exchange for his peerage, he's also a non-dom and worse of all he claimed more than £300k in expenses to attend the House of Lords when he's a billionaire. I think you'll find that Ashcroft hasn't claimed expenses for attending the House of Lords and is going to cease being a non-dom.
Some of you Labour loyalists really are stupid. If you're going to support them then at least do some research, find out the facts (not the spin) and make your judgement accordingly.
It's inconceivable to me that you could be so stupid as to support that party after the last thirteen years of government, especially when your reasons are so poor.
"I don't like the Tories because they are bankrolled" - all parties are.
"I don't like the Tories because of Thatcher" - winter of discontent (hi Labour).
"I don't like the Tories because they are toffs" - Clegg went to a rich boy school too and since when is a good education such a terrible thing?
"I don't like the Tories because of Lord Ashcroft the non-dom" - there are many non-doms, including Lord Paul who happens to fund the Labour party with a fortune made up of the pensions of British steel workers.
"I don't like the Tories because they hate the poor/working class" - a key Conservative policy has always been to reduce taxes, can't say the same for tax and spend Labour now can we?
"I don't like the Tories because they closed the mines/factories" - if the workers didn't take their striking action too far and refuse to modernise their industries they wouldn't have closed so soon, although they would have inevitably closed due to globalisation.
"I don't like the Tories because they support FPTP" - the Tories get screwed over by FPTP but still they stand by it, they aren't looking to change the system to something which favours them more are they?
Anything else?
Do yourselves a favour, take a look at the policies of all the parties, do some research on what they genuinely stand for and what these things will actually mean for our country and then make up your mind on who to vote for and support. These ridiculous grudges and arguments based solely on spin don't get anyone anywhere.
Stop living in your Labour over-spending sponsored bubble of ridiculousness and come back to reality. We need major cuts immediately, we need lower corporate taxes immediately, we don't need an income tax rise and we absolutely need a change from Gordon Brown and the massive public sector Labour have created. The only party offering all of these things are the Conservatives.
It amazes me to see people interviewed on the news and posting on forums who say things like "I think Gordon Brown's done a good job of steering us through recession and managing our finances". Are they really that oblivious to what Gordon has actually done?
sorry - my bad
either way, the UK is probably one of the worst affected countries in the world, and I can't see how Brown can given any form of praise for landing us in this...
in a different time in history he would have been given a bottle of whiskey and a revolver...
Associate
- Joined
- 30 Nov 2003
- Posts
- 2,211
Muhrr. I'm not saying that Tory policy will make the poor worse off. I'm saying that how they deal with the impending default of the entire country will make the poor worse off than how Labour (Not New Labour) would deal with it.
Yes, the poor will still be worse off, but they'll be less worse off than they would be under the Tories.
Sorry Dolph, that article is a complete load of ********.
Yougov said that in a recent poll, 60%+ were in favour of moving to a more proportional system.
It's only the tories who won't touch it, because they fear losing some of their power share.
The line "only LibDem supporters want PR, and that's only 23%" is nothing more than tory propaganda.