I have the worst BB genes ever.

[Freefaller]

It is a pile of crap. There are many federations which test for illegal substances.

You can put on size without gear - sure you're never necessarily going to be 18st massive and cut, but we have some mighty big chaps on this forum alone, and I know some personally who have achieved big lifts and relatively big physiques without the use of substances. If you want to hit the dizzy heights of Dennis Wolf or Jay Cutler you're going to have to be assisted for sure, but that's a lifestyle change - there are many natural federations with big natural guys who just train harder than most people, eat well and possibly have luckier genetic structure.

However, in spite of genetics, ANYONE can build a good couple of stone worth of muscle. It takes YEARS however, many many years. Of hard work, good nutrition and lots of education.

There is a genetic limit, clearly, which is when these guys carry on and go past their genetic limit. However, a LOT can be achieved without dabbling in the dark arts. No one here is competing, no one here is seeking larger than life size.

What I object to, is sweeping comments that to get big you need help - you don't. To get untested big, with GH and 'slin then sure, of course you do. 2 VERY different things.

People who think you need "assistance" to get anywhere are talking out of their ill-educated and malnourished faeces passage.

 

[marl]

My brother was a pro BB - did shows, used to hang out with all his BB mates. If you are talking about just getting into shape and looking good, fair enough. I'm talking about BB, the big guys in the mags.

To be one of those large BB guys, you need some extra help if your genetics aren't absolutely right. I don't agree with it, and would never advise it. I had the perfect diet and went to the gym 4 days a week with a dedicated program. I could not top 14 stone but looked in great shape. Some people just can't put on weight beyond a certain point, no matter how they eat or train.

I agree 100% with this.

 

[ben90]

Really..! Please then direct me to the before and after photo's of all these 'natural bodybuilders' who have achieved outstanding results without having to resort to 'the dark side.'

Please also explain to me why so many pro bodybuilders over the years have 'weak' bodyparts which even they cannot bring up to scratch - what are they doing wrong!

I don't train anymore, as I said I was never a bodybuilder, but if I was doing something wrong, then so were most of the guys I knew, and observed, because few of them achieved results which could have been described as anything other than modest!

With good training, nutrition and rest its very reasonable to put on 1lb a week of muscle. Thats 4 pounds a month, 48 pounds a year. Minus the fact your body adjusts, ilness, life that interferes, you could probably put on 30lbs on a bad year, if thats not good progress then I dont know what is. It doesnt happen over night, it takes years of good knowledge and practice to achieve this.

Of course the massive people take juice, its fairly obvious, but its absolutely possible for ANYONE to achieve good gains, given time.

 

[marl]

With good training, nutrition and rest its very reasonable to put on 1lb a week of muscle. Thats 4 pounds a month, 48 pounds a year. Minus the fact your body adjusts, ilness, life that interferes, you could probably put on 30lbs on a bad year, if thats not good progress then I dont know what is. It doesnt happen over night, it takes years of good knowledge and practice to achieve this.

Of course the massive people take juice, its fairly obvious, but its absolutely possible for ANYONE to achieve good gains, given time.

I could not disagree more with this statement! For the vast majority of people this would be impossible!

30lbs of muscle in a bad year...! You are joking aren't you?

Again I ask... direct me to the before and after photographs!

 

[ben90]

I could not disagree more with this statement! For the vast majority of people this would be impossible!

30lbs of muscle in a bad year...! You are joking aren't you?

Again I ask... direct me to the before and after photographs!

Ok it might of been optomistic! Still, anyone can build a noticeable amount if their doing it right. Its how the body works. I dont see the need for before and afters, its possible, theres people on this forum who've done it.

 

[Cristian]

With good training, nutrition and rest its very reasonable to put on 1lb a week of muscle.

that's doable, but only for the first 2-3 months and only if you have just started and have a spot on diet and traning routine.
Heck I added 2inches on my arms in my first 6 months of training (do have before/after pics to prove that), and about another half an inch in another year after that.

after that only then the real slow but rewarding process of muscle buidling starts.

 

[Cristian]

*delete please

 

[marl]

Ok it might of been optomistic! Still, anyone can build a noticeable amount if their doing it right. Its how the body works. I dont see the need for before and afters, its possible, theres people on this forum who've done it.

Fair enough. I don't deny that some people can make good, noticeable gains. As I said I was never a bodybuilder. But over a 15 year period I did quite a bit of weight training spread over 3 gyms. In all that time I only ever came across 1 guy who made spectacular gains, (over a 3 month period before he moved on to another gym), training naturally. Interestingly, when he first came to the gym people could not believe that he had never lifted weights before because he looked more like a bodybuilder than guys who'd been training for years!

The vast majority of the guys I knew, even the ones who were seriously trying to gain weight only made modest gains.

My point being, that if the OP feels frustrated then I believe he's not alone. There are 1000's like him out there for whom gaining muscle/mass is difficult if not impossible.

 

[Freefaller]

With good training, nutrition and rest its very reasonable to put on 1lb a week of muscle. Thats 4 pounds a month, 48 pounds a year. Minus the fact your body adjusts, ilness, life that interferes, you could probably put on 30lbs on a bad year, if thats not good progress then I dont know what is. It doesnt happen over night, it takes years of good knowledge and practice to achieve this.

Of course the massive people take juice, its fairly obvious, but its absolutely possible for ANYONE to achieve good gains, given time.

That's a little over zealous. You can put on initially 10lbs of lean muscle in the 1st year. However after that it gets harder. I agree with your sentiments but your figures are a little optimistic.

 

[Freefaller]

Fair enough. I don't deny that some people can make good, noticeable gains. As I said I was never a bodybuilder. But over a 15 year period I did quite a bit of weight training spread over 3 gyms. In all that time I only ever came across 1 guy who made spectacular gains, (over a 3 month period before he moved on to another gym), training naturally. Interestingly, when he first came to the gym people could not believe that he had never lifted weights before because he looked more like a bodybuilder than guys who'd been training for years!

The vast majority of the guys I knew, even the ones who were seriously trying to gain weight only made modest gains.

My point being, that if the OP feels frustrated then I believe he's not alone. There are 1000's like him out there for whom gaining muscle/mass is difficult if not impossible.

It is not impossible. Seriously. It really isn't.

People are too impatient these days and want results tomorrow rather than dedicating the YEARS it takes for development. Rather than making the EFFORT, and giving the dedication.

This is possible with decent diet, training and effort.

I can empathise with the frustration, we all face such things in life. However, stating that it is categorically impossible is rubbish I'm afraid.

 

[marl]

It is not impossible. Seriously. It really isn't.

People are too impatient these days and want results tomorrow rather than dedicating the YEARS it takes for development. Rather than making the EFFORT, and giving the dedication.

This is possible with decent diet, training and effort.

I can empathise with the frustration, we all face such things in life. However, stating that it is categorically impossible is rubbish I'm afraid.

Okay, I'll agree that impossible is too strong a word to use so I'll stick with difficult!

 

[Freefaller]

Sure.

And I agree. This IS hard work... but no one said it was going to be easy to achieve. People give up to easily, and want special remedies to help them rather than putting blood and guts into it which is what is needed.

 

[marl]

Sure.

And I agree. This IS hard work... but no one said it was going to be easy to achieve. People give up to easily, and want special remedies to help them rather than putting blood and guts into it which is what is needed.

Yeah. But have you ever encountered someone who did all the above for very little reward?

 

[Freefaller]

Yes. Me for a start.

 

[ben90]

That's a little over zealous. You can put on initially 10lbs of lean muscle in the 1st year. However after that it gets harder. I agree with your sentiments but your figures are a little optimistic.

Haha yep! I was trying to remember from memory of an article I read a long time ago, I knew it was something like that, safe to say though there is no average, some people will do more, some less, but its definately possible.

 

[bakes0310]

Very interesting thread, ill add my 2p. I was stuck on 12stone 10 pounds for months infact i dont think i ever been any bigger. My diet was really good i was eating all the right things, i dont drink or smoke and had enough sleep and rest periods. After some little work detective freefaller pointed out i was just not eating enough so i simply scoffed down more food, made sure i was eating every 3 hours or less. And now Im 13stone 6 pounds and very happy with my gains....only trouble is i got to eat a lttle more to reach 14stone

 

[tom_e]

Yeah. But have you ever encountered someone who did all the above for very little reward?

Depends what you see as very little reward, I see the change in my body and the sense of pride I get knowing it was all down to me and my hard work as massive reward

 

[Skull]

Lot of rationalization going on here.

Weighing 130kg at 5'10 with single digit bodyfat is (except for perhaps one or two men in the whole world) impossible. Mr. Olympia is on steroids, we know.

Weighing 90kg at 5'10 with 10% bodyfat... That's not an unrealistic or impossible target. It's a shame people think it is.

If you feel like you're stuck in a rut you have to try something new. The bodybuilding world is a frothy sea of debate over which of a vast array of methods is the best, so try a new one. Go for a split if you do total body, do long negatives if you don't now, increase your volume, lower your reps and raise weight.

I've found I can train 5 days a week and am doing much better now.

The key thing though is to eat enough which is what most people seem to stumble over. If you're not putting on any weight, you're not eating enough, simple! The human body is demonstrably adept at turning excess calories into fat, so if you aren't putting on at least a little fat, you aren't eating enough and it's as simple as that.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

Lot of rationalization going on here.

Weighing 130kg at 5'10 with single digit bodyfat is (except for perhaps one or two men in the whole world) impossible. Mr. Olympia is on steroids, we know.

Weighing 90kg at 5'10 with 10% bodyfat... That's not an unrealistic or impossible target. It's a shame people think it is.

If you feel like you're stuck in a rut you have to try something new. The bodybuilding world is a frothy sea of debate over which of a vast array of methods is the best, so try a new one. Go for a split if you do total body, do long negatives if you don't now, increase your volume, lower your reps and raise weight.

I've found I can train 5 days a week and am doing much better now.

The key thing though is to eat enough which is what most people seem to stumble over. If you're not putting on any weight, you're not eating enough, simple! The human body is demonstrably adept at turning excess calories into fat, so if you aren't putting on at least a little fat, you aren't eating enough and it's as simple as that.

Damn right! It's so simple, how do people expect to grow muscle if they're not eating more?

So what if you gain a bit of fat with every kilo of muscle? Overall it'll probably make no difference.

So if you want to lose that extra kilo or two of fat it's fairly easily done. Until each more and train.

 

[Skeptic]

Just thought that I would update.

I guess I was on a bit of a downer when I posted. I suppose the problem is that I see other people putting in less effort, and gaining significantly better. I understand that genes do play a part. I eat well, I train hard, and I sleep like a baby.

However, I also accept that I had a poor starting position. I have puberty induced gyno, and hold fat in the strangest of places. This has the undesired effect of making me look odd. If I had lower bodyfat, I'd look good, I think.

I don't think that my goals are unrealistic. I do think that I struggle more than most. I don't think that the darkside is a quick route. If I were to go that way, i'd go more on the PH/DS way.

Great thread though, loving the replies.