Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

Yet you then want to complain when soldiers defend themselves?

No, I'm disputing whether the ship should have been boarded at all.

Israel hasn't complained though.

Did you not read the quotes?

"Unfortunately this group were dead-set on confrontation," Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev told the BBC.

"Live fire was used against our forces. They initiated the violence, that's 100% clear," he said.

Israel's deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon said his country "regrets any loss of life and did everything to avoid this outcome".

He accused the convoy of a "premeditated and outrageous provocation", describing the flotilla as an "armada of hate".

Israel had repeatedly said it would stop the boats, calling the campaign a "provocation intended to delegitimise Israel".

"Navy fighters took control of six ships that tried to violate the naval blockade [of the Gaza Strip]," said a statement from the IDF. "During the takeover, the soldiers encountered serious physical violence by the protesters, who attacked them with live fire."
 
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No, I'm disputing whether the ship should have been boarded at all.

Yes but that is to me a separate issue from whether the soldiers who boarded the ship were justified in using deadly force to defend themselves and secure the ship.

Personally, I think if they were convinced of their right to the blockade and encountered the resistance they did, they should have withdrawn, hauled off, given a couple more warnings, and then if the ship did not turn back, hulled it and forced an evacuation.

But of course, that would net them even more criticism.

Maybe they should have anticipated that 'humanitarian activists' would attempt to murder soldiers, and just hit the entire boat with tear gas and stun grenades...of course if they were wrong, we all know what the headlines would be, ignoring the zero fatality rate such an action might have achieved...
 
tell you what, watch this:


now tell me they overreacted

the individual soldiers - nope - they were in a nasty situation - they were boarding a ship that blatantly expected to be boarded and were attacked by a small mob waiting for them with sticks etc...

if I was an IDF soldier and a bunch of turkish Muslims started attacking me with sticks and then tried to snatch my weapon off me then I'd probably shoot them too (as a last resort) - tbh..that does look like what has happened - they've landed, taken a bit of a kicking and its got out of control...

I think the IDF and the people running the operation have a lot to answer for - sending in small teams armed with firearms to deal with a big mob not armed with firearms is a bit silly - they must have had some intel ref: the number of passengers/protestors this convoy was bringing along. Though its not completely one sided - running at armed soldiers with some sticks is a dumb idea - if they hadn't started attacking them then they wouldn't have got shot - its not like the is the only time the IDF has boarded a ship to carry out a search - the other instances generally go un-reported and don't involve people being silly, attacking the soldiers and then getting themselves shot int he process...
 
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Yes but that is to me a separate issue from whether the soldiers who boarded the ship were justified in using deadly force to defend themselves and secure the ship.

Personally, I think if they were convinced of their right to the blockade and encountered the resistance they did, they should have withdrawn, hauled off, given a couple more warnings, and then if the ship did not turn back, hulled it and forced an evacuation.

They obviously wanted the ship and its cargo intact, otherwise it would not have been taken to Ashdod and emptied.

But of course, that would net them even more criticism.

Maybe they should have anticipated that 'humanitarian activists' would attempt to murder soldiers, and just hit the entire boat with tear gas and stun grenades...of course if they were wrong, we all know what the headlines would be, ignoring the zero fatality rate such an action might have achieved...

It was called a "convoy of hate" and an attempt to "deligitimise" Israel. What message do you think those statements send to neutral observers?
 
the individual soldiers - nope - they were in a nasty situation - they were boarding a ship that blatantly expected to be boarded and were attacked by a small mob waiting for them with sticks etc...

if I was an IDF soldier and a bunch of turkish Muslims started attacking me with sticks and then tried to snatch my weapon off me then I'd probably shoot them too (as a last resort) - tbh..that does look like what has happened - they've landed, taken a bit of a kicking and its got out of control...

I think the IDF and the people running the operation have a lot to answer for - sending in small teams armed with firearms to deal with a big mob not armed with firearms is a bit silly.

from the video i do agree the first guy on the rope should have been like 'ok hold on a sec, this won't go down well, let's back off and try something else...'

However, I'm open to suggestions as to what the 'else' might have been.
 
I think the IDF and the people running the operation have a lot to answer for - sending in small teams armed with firearms to deal with a big mob not armed with firearms is a bit silly.

Thats fairly normal tactics for ship boarding... you don't expect a largely civilian crowd to attack heavily armed commandos.
 
They obviously wanted the ship and its cargo intact, otherwise it would not have been taken to Ashdod and emptied.

They wanted to inspect the cargo in order to ensure certain types of item did not reach Gaza or at least did so through channels under their control. I'm sure they wouldn't have been the unhappy ones had they been forced to sink the boat.

It was called a "convoy of hate" and an attempt to "deligitimise" Israel. What message do you think those statements send to neutral observers?

I think that might have been in response to this:
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2489.htm

possibly.
 
If you want to seize a ship by force, you equally can't complain if the passengers decide not to let you do so. Which is exactly what happened. Where is the scanning equipment if the IDF's first intent was to search the cargo?

Scanning equipment ? That would be the blokes coming down from the helicopter.

I've got visions of Space-Jews from the USS Mazeltov beaming down tricorder in hand....
 
As I said in the other thread... 6 to one and half a dozen to the other... the only thing thats questionable is boarding the boats in international waters. Better they got it over and done with tho IMO it was liable to end far worse if they'd persisted to try and breach the actual "blockade" when warned off.
 
Please show me where the IDF asked to board the ships to search for weapons, then. I provided you a list of prohibited items, nothing to do with weapons, if Israel was concerned with just those, only weapons would be banned. This is clearly a blockade as the IDF will not allow items such as dried fruit into Gaza.



This is a very obvious ship, it makes little sense to use it for smuggling arms...



Can I see some evidence please? Or are you going to keep making irrelevant comparisons?



We seem to do a poor job here in the UK of stopping illegal immigrants, never mind weapons smuggling. Oh wait, you like to fearmonger to justify practically anything...



I have no interest in the conflict continuing, as I do not manufacture weapons...


Where was I fearmongering? I was saying people like you who are being pedantic and the people in this thread who are going on about it being in international waters, media included, would be making the exact opposite argument in the situation I outlined.

This is my problem with half the people in the thread, they are complaining because they don't like( and don't have a clue about) Israel's behaviour, not because it is in international waters, their arguments will change from one situation to another.

I didn't claim anything, I was giving examples of situations where your argument and the "general" arguments would be on exactly the opposite side, IE, as and when it suits people the rules being followed or ignored is up to them on a per situation basis.

Its wrong for Israel to flout them, but its fine for other people in situations deemed ok.

As for it being an obvious boat, if something has to be brought in, are you going to try and hide it on the boat most people wouldn't think you'd try to hide on, or the small boat going at night appearing from nowhere without a reason for being there.

Also, on boats that large, you can search all day and still miss a massive cache of arms or 3 terrorists hidden in some passageway you missed.

I do like the fact you said I like to fearmonger to justify anything, I very VERY specifically am completely opposite to that, I made EXAMPLES of why OTHER people would complain, not things I'm complaining about, I couldn't give two hoots frankly, but peoples stupid arguments in this thread irked me, nothing more or less.

I'm completely against the idea of adding new laws hurting normal people and being justified by ridiculous scaremongering over possible terrorist attacks, I'm completely against changing the way we live/run the country based on sporadic and minimal terrorist attacks, you couldn't have been more incredibly wrong with that statement, or really anything else you've said.


If people just say, meh, I can't stand Israel, or Palestine, or protestors, I'm fine, people are entitled to their opinions, but utterly stupid excuses about piracy and how a metal pole isn't threatening because he has a gun and theres helicopters around, while not stating their actual opinion but trying to make one side sound good or bad, irritates the hell out of me.

As I've said more than once now, all the arguments from those people in this thread would be reversed in a different situation, which is what makes their points completely invalid.

Can you honestly tell me that if our government blew up a ship 100miles out that we knew had a bomb on it a single person would complain it was done in international waters? I wouldn't, but then I'm not complaining about it here either.
 
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Thats fairly normal tactics for ship boarding... you don't expect a largely civilian crowd to attack heavily armed commandos.

why not - it happens fairly regularly in Israel - look at any news footage of Palestinians demonstrating

anyway most ships carrying supplies will just have a crew on board not a bunch of demonstrators

they knew there were large groups of protesters on the ship when it left port - the whole point of this convoy was to protest etc..
 
Scanning equipment ? That would be the blokes coming down from the helicopter.

I've got visions of Space-Jews from the USS Mazeltov beaming down tricorder in hand....

*people on the boat*

'Look! They aren't bringing scanning equipment down with them in the initial boarding party - they must be here for nefarious means! Quick, charge them! Fight for your lives!
 
Radio frequency scanners.

so you are telling me that you are certain that the IDF policy for conducting a night-time boarding and seizure of a boat attempting to violate their blockade is to ensure the commandos leading the seizure are carrying radio frequency scanners? and that if they are not then Israel are being duplicitous about their motives?
 
Heres a video of a peace protester stabbing one of the IDF commandos -


It's not entirely implausible to think that the Zionist psy-ops knocked this up on a boat back in Israel after the shootings. We can never know.

What is disturbing is the amount of people who condone Israel's actions through decades of indoctrination that has taught them that the existence of Israel and anything it chooses to do is good and Palestinians are bad.

The same people that quote Aparthied SA as the worst government to ever have existed will be the same people the champion the right of God's chosen race of people to bulldoze their way through the Middle East killing, ethnically cleansing their way to a Zionist Empire.
 
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