Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

DreadNiK · 31 May 2010 at 18:51

The Funktopus said:
The Israeli Navy have released this, FLIR footage from one of their helicopters as their Special Forces fast-rope onto the deck of one of the ships. As you can see, the soldiers immedeatly come under attack from protestors, and the first man's thrown from one deck to another below.

Indy500 · 31 May 2010 at 18:52

Duggan said:
I think he meant more put the facts forward or shut up.

Not what I first thought by his statement of fight or shut up

SR4470 correct me if i got this wrong

I asked for evidence to support the claims. If posters want to echo the IDF they're wasting their time - I can read the quotes myself.

Rroff · 31 May 2010 at 18:55

Doesn't matter if they used guns, grenades or otherwise to repel the bording parties... its incredibly stupid to make a fuss about getting hurt when you attack people armed with guns, especially when some of them attempted to remove the guns from the soldiers (what did they expect? that the soldiers would just let themselves be killed with their own weapons?) which may have been the firearms used to shoot at the israeli forces rather than anything that was already on the boats (same with the stun grenades, probably taken off one of the soldiers that was thrown to the ground and beaten).

The Funktopus · 31 May 2010 at 18:57

chimaera said:
And now their so called special forces get made to look a bit silly, the funniest bit for me was the video where they highlight the scary guys with metal poles...conveniently ignoring the fact that they had sub-machine guns and helicopter support, oh nooos a bad man with a pole is after me i better shoot him in defence.

So, just to clarify if someone comes at you swinging a metal pole from a few feet away and you have a gun, you're not going to use it? Of course, one could just QWERTY him and be done with it....

Tefal · 31 May 2010 at 18:57

sr4470 said:
What's your definition?

It means try to make things better or stop complaining.

Indy500 · 31 May 2010 at 18:59

A firebomb that doesn't catch fire and a stun grenade that looks rather large for a grenade. Not very impressive...

Rroff said:
Doesn't matter if they used guns, grenades or otherwise to repel the bording parties... its incredibly stupid to make a fuss about getting hurt when you attack people armed with guns, especially when some of them attempted to remove the guns from the soldiers (what did they expect?

I'm not questioning individual soldiers actions, I'm questioning why the IDF has blockaded the area and banned foodstuffs\construction materials from being transported there. The boarding was ostensibly to enforce this blockade.

Rroff said:
that the soldiers would just let themselves be killed with their own weapons?) which may have been the firearms used to shoot at the israeli forces rather than anything that was already on the boats.

Proof please. The video doesn't show this. Can I also have some evidence that any of the commandos were killed?

Tefal said:
It means try to make things better or stop complaining.

I've seen it used in the context of asking for evidence. In which case, I'd like to see the people complaining about the passengers try taking aid there without weapons and see if they succeed.

Rroff · 31 May 2010 at 19:01

sr4470 said:
Proof please. The video doesn't show this. Can I also have some evidence that any of the commados were killed?

I never claimed any of the commandos were killed...

DreadNiK · 31 May 2010 at 19:02

sr4470 said:
A firebomb that doesn't catch fire and a stun grenade that looks rather large for a grenade. Not very impressive...

I'm not questioning individual soldiers actions, I'm questioning why the IDF has blockaded the area and banned foodstuffs\construction materials from being transported there. The boarding was ostensibly to enforce this blockade.

while a valid area of debate, it isn't really relevant to whether the IDF's use of deadly force was justified in this instance.

sr4470 said:
Proof please. The video doesn't show this. Can I also have some evidence that any of the commados were killed?

does the video at the top of the page not at least go some way to suggesting that perhaps their use of force was justified in self defence?

ordinaryjoe · 31 May 2010 at 19:02

sr4470 said:
What's your definition? While you're at it, show me where the passengers used firearms or grenades. I won't ask again.

"Put up or shut up" is used when someone is bothered by something, and instead of doing something about it, they just moan. Telling them to 'put up or shut up' is telling them to try to fix the problem, or stop moaning.

You know perfectly well that for the most part, it's 1 person's word against the other, and there is very little conclusive evidence out at the moment. Sure... the videos don't show firearms being used by the so called 'aid workers', but they don't show Israelis shooting anyone either.
(and a stun grenade is shown in 1 of the videos earlier anyway... care to explain how stun grenades are used as part of aid work?)

DreadNiK · 31 May 2010 at 19:04

The Funktopus said:
So, just to clarify if someone comes at you swinging a metal pole from a few feet away and you have a gun, you're not going to use it? Of course, one could just QWERTY him and be done with it....

I think he's suggesting having guns that you aren't prepared to use in defense somehow still count as 'being better armed'

...or that it is alright to attempt to kill someone far better armed than you, because of the very fact they are much better armed requires them not to use a more effective form of lethal force in response....

idk

Indy500 · 31 May 2010 at 19:05

DreadNiK said:
while a valid area of debate, it isn't really relevant to whether the IDF's use of deadly force was justified in this instance.

The boarding was justified by the blockade. No blockade = no confrontation at sea.

DreadNiK said:
does the video at the top of the page not at least go some way to suggesting that perhaps their use of force was justified in self defence?

If you want to seize a ship by force, you equally can't complain if the passengers decide not to let you do so. Which is exactly what happened. Where is the scanning equipment if the IDF's first intent was to search the cargo?

ordinaryjoe · 31 May 2010 at 19:05

sr4470 said:
Proof please. The video doesn't show this. Can I also have some evidence that any of the commandos were killed?

So they're not allowed to defend themselves unless if 1 of them gets killed first?

I wouldn't like you to be in command of me if I was in the army/special forces :rolleyes:

Rroff · 31 May 2010 at 19:05

Pretty sure the stun grenade was taken off the soldier seen taking a beating on the floor. Its probable also his firearm(s) were the ones used by the people on the boats.

Theres no excuse for any of it really... they publicly announced they were going to try and run the blockade and the Israelis publicly announced they would take steps to prevent it... so turning on armed soldiers doing what they had publicly stated they would do is just pure stupidity.

Tefal · 31 May 2010 at 19:06

sr4470 said:
If you want to seize a ship by force, you equally can't complain if the passengers decide not to let you do so. Which is exactly what happened. Where is the scanning equipment if the IDF's first intent was to search the cargo?

You don't send unarmed inspectors into an unsecured environment.

They'd be hacked to pieces/become hostages.

DreadNiK · 31 May 2010 at 19:07

Rroff said:
Pretty sure the stun grenade was taken off the soldier seen taking a beating on the floor. Its probable also his firearm(s) were the ones used by the people on the boats.

oh, ok then. as long as they were using the soldier's own weapons against them that's fine...

ordinaryjoe · 31 May 2010 at 19:07

sr4470 said:
If you want to seize a ship by force, you equally can't complain if the passengers decide not to let you do so. Which is exactly what happened. Where is the scanning equipment if the IDF's first intent was to search the cargo?

Who said they wanted to seize it by force? Intimidation would surely be preferable?

Rroff · 31 May 2010 at 19:08

DreadNiK said:
oh, ok then. as long as they were using the soldier's own weapons against them that's fine...

I never said it was fine... I'm just saying that is most likely the source of the weapons used by the civilians rather than something they brought along with them purposely to repel borders. A stun grenade is a pretty odd thing to pack in the case of those on the ships but quite normal with special forces. As we can see one soldier taking a beating on the floor its likely the stun grenade was from him and seeing as they apparently used his stun grenade its a fairly reasonable assumption that they were in posession of his firearm(s) also and if any were used against the commandos these would be the most likely.

DreadNiK · 31 May 2010 at 19:10

sr4470 said:
If you want to seize a ship by force, you equally can't complain if the passengers decide not to let you do so.

Yet you then want to complain when soldiers defend themselves?

Tefal · 31 May 2010 at 19:10

sr4470 said:
If you want to seize a ship by force, you equally can't complain if the passengers decide not to let you do so. ?

Israel hasn't complained though.

DreadNiK · 31 May 2010 at 19:11

Rroff said:
I never said it was fine... I'm just saying that is most likely the source of the weapons used by the civilians rather than something they brought along with them purposely to repel borders. A stun grenade is a pretty odd thing to pack in the case of those on the ships but quite normal with special forces. As we can see one soldier taking a beating on the floor its likely the stun grenade was from him and seeing as they apparently used his stun grenade its a fairly reasonable assumption that they were in posession of his firearm(s) also and if any were used against the commandos these would be the most likely.

fair enough - I'm plenty skeptical of swallowing Israel's reports whole, I'll rely on those videos and they certainly don't show the whole situation