What if? Historical Scenario

[Chives]

What if Nazi Germany hadn't attacked the USSR and they signed an 100 year co-operation treaty. According to wiki with the troops that wouldn't have been deployed on the russian front total to:
3.9 million (including reserve),
3,600 tanks,
4,389 aircraft
46,000 artillery pieces
This would mean that Germany would have all this extra force to deploy to North Africa, which surely would lead to a German victory under Erwin Rommel. (And so hence the collapse of Italy would never have happened). Germany by this point with all this extra force would be have crushed Egypt and slowely rampage through the Middle East, with all of those Oil Reserves .

So lets say for this scenario that the U.S.A , Britain and the rest of the commonwealth where at war with Nazi Germany.
What chance do you think the Allies (Remember not including the U.S.S.R) would have of invading Europe succsessfully and defeating Nazi Germany?, (Bearing in mind all this extra manpower they will have)

 

[JBuk]

I think a lot more nukes would have been dropped


but tbh it's a silly topic, what if this, what if that? what if Hitler had been assasinated, etc

 

[jp_bl_68]

I thought our success hinged on the Russians so without them I think we'd have lost. I suppose the Americans could've committed more troops.

 

[Chives]

I think a lot more nukes would have been dropped


but tbh it's a silly topic, what if this, what if that? what if Hitler had been assasinated, etc

Whilst I agree it is pointless , It is still a very interesting topic to discuss.
Also worth noting that Germany would probably have developed nukes aswell.

 

[Castiel]

The German and Russian ideology was too far apart to allow any meaningful alliance. I would expect that any alliance would have been shortlived and disasterous for both sides.

The Nazi regime was never going to endure anyway. Germany wasn't Russia, the populace was not ever going to be oppressed in the same way that Stalin was able to suppress the USSR.

 

[KNiVES]

Whilst I agree it is pointless , It is still a very interesting topic to discuss.
Also worth noting that Germany would probably have developed nukes aswell.

I've read that the Germans' heavy water research was on a disastrous level by the time the war ended anyway. Even if they allied with the Russians, the US' immense nuclear firepower would have incinerated them.

 

[lemonkettaz]

If Germany didn't bite off more than they could chew, they probably could have developed an A Bomb, they were getting crippled so could barely re arm themselves by the end

 

[Chives]

The German and Russian ideology was too far apart to allow any meaningful alliance. I would expect that any alliance would have been shortlived and disasterous for both sides.

The Nazi regime was never going to endure anyway. Germany wasn't Russia, the populace was not ever going to be oppressed in the same way that Stalin was able to suppress the USSR.

With the SS and the Gestapo I'm sure they could have kept the population oppressed.
I'm not sure about your other point, until germany invaded they where getting on very well and their relationship showed no signs of weakening..

 

[Will Lucky]

They were both Paranoid, as far as I'm concerned one of them would have gone for the other eventually. Stalin was more Paranoid if I recall after he witnessed Germany blitzkrieg Western Europe as he wanted them to be bogged down in a war similar to WW1 so that he could get them all while they were weak from years at war. He didn't expect a victory that fast to occur.

As stated by Castiel their Ideologies were too far apart to allow them to co-operate for too long, eventually one would backstab the other.

 

[Chives]

They were both Paranoid, as far as I'm concerned one of them would have gone for the other eventually. Stalin was more Paranoid if I recall after he witnessed Germany blitzkrieg Western Europe as he wanted them to be bogged down in a war similar to WW1 so that he could get them all while they were weak from years at war. He didn't expect a victory that fast to occur.

As stated by Castiel their Ideologies were too far apart to allow them to co-operate for too long, eventually one would backstab the other.

I don't think a Russian Invasion of Germany at this time would succeed, they would have to deal with resistance in the baltic and Ukraine and poland. Germany would have been able to call upon the countries of the Balkans (Which where basically client states of Germany) to prepare their Armies, At this time the German Armed Forces where better than the U.S.S.R's in every way. In short it would have failed very badly.

 

[Moredhel]

I've read that the Germans' heavy water research was on a disastrous level by the time the war ended anyway. Even if they allied with the Russians, the US' immense nuclear firepower would have incinerated them.

The Nazi heavy water research was crippled by allied attacks before it got anywhere meaningful... is what I want to say, however thinking about it I can't remember if I either:

• Read it somewhere valid where it's a real aspect of history.
• Read it in a Harry Turtledove alternate history novel where the warring nations during world war 2 came together to fight off alien invasion.
• Heard it in one of the Call of Duty or Medal of Honor games.

 

[Greenlizard0]

It was in Norway and taken down by the Brits if I remember correctly. Telemark?

 

[Chives]

It was in Norway and taken down by the Brits if I remember correctly. Telemark?

British Trained Norweigen Operatives according to wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_heavy_water_sabotage

 

[rare]

I've read that the Germans' heavy water research was on a disastrous level by the time the war ended anyway. Even if they allied with the Russians, the US' immense nuclear firepower would have incinerated them.

In Albert Speers book he comments how Hitler disregarded the Nuclear bomb program, and so it was never really funded to the extent that it could have been. Like many things Hitler thought he knew the technical details better than his specialists in their own fields. Hence why Hitler wanted to make the first Jet planes bombers and not fighters, even though they could hardly hold any payload worth bothering with. And yet would have been much better as fighters since they could fly higher than the Allied bomber squadrons.

The regime was doomed to fail regardless, it was terribly corrupt and not effieicent by any means. Hitler thought the D-Day landings were fake so he held off the attack for the "real" invasion while all the time the allies maneged to get further inland. He was fast asleep and no one would wake him, he wasnt even told until after he had his breakfast.

His orders were totally mad towards the later part of the war because he saw every failure as simply a problem that would be solved. He believed that he was all but invincible and that providence would prove him right in the end.

An invasion would have been all but impossible if it had not been for the fact that the war on the eastern front had used up the majority of resources already. It was only because the Russains had been bleeding Germany dry for 2 years that the western powers could mount a successful invasion. If they had invaded when Hitler had nearly 4 million men and thousands of planes they wouldnt of stood a chance. Theres no way they could have reinforced an army on the beaches while fighting, especially not have been able to build and move the docks in to position.

 

[Chives]

In Albert Speers book he comments how Hitler disregarded the Nuclear bomb program, and so it was never really funded to the extent that it could have been. Like many things Hitler thought he knew the technical details better than his specialists in their own fields. Hence why Hitler wanted to make the first Jet planes bombers and not fighters, even though they could hardly hold any payload worth bothering with. And yet would have been much better as fighters since they could fly higher than the Allied bomber squadrons.

The regime was doomed to fail regardless, it was terribly corrupt and not effieicent by any means. Hitler thought the D-Day landings were fake so he held off the attack for the "real" invasion while all the time the allies maneged to get further inland. He was fast asleep and no one would wake him, he wasnt even told until after he had his breakfast.

His orders were totally mad towards the later part of the war because he saw every failure as simply a problem that would be solved. He believed that he was all but invincible and that providence would prove him right in the end.

I think it's a very good thing for us that hitler was such an idiot, Had he not held back at stalingrad and D-Day, I genuinelly believe that Nazi Germany would be the dominant force in Europe today.

 

[msmalls74]

But what if Russia entered Turkey from the rear would Greece help?

Pretty sure that a larger nuclear response from the US would be the most probable scenario.

 

[Will Lucky]

I think it's a very good thing for us that hitler was such an idiot, Had he not held back at stalingrad and D-Day, I genuinelly believe that Nazi Germany would be the dominant force in Europe today.

I'm sure the Americans would have nuked German cities if it came to it.

 

[Moredhel]

I'm sure the Americans would have nuked German cities if it came to it.

I think the point is that if Hitler wasn't so bad, germany would have had nukes far earlier than the allied nations.

 

[Chives]

I'm sure the Americans would have nuked German cities if it came to it.

I don't know. By the time America had nukes, I'm sure that Germany would have had nukes aswell, So I think that the USA wouldn't have risked nuking Germany and would have tried to make peace with germany. Leaving Germany to rule North Africa , Europe and the middle east. Nice little empire for them eh.

 

[jak731]

Not that I know a lot about history, but didn't germany secure lots of oil fields when it invaded russia, even though it failed to take stalingrad? If they had a peace treaty they would not have had this important resource for the rest of their effort in europe.