955 & 965 OC question!

[Big.Wayne]

Hey jakesnake,

let me get this one for you . . . feel free to make your own reply also!

There is a strange process happening here where the poster has some very strong desire towards the Asus Crosshair IV Formula that is obvious to me so allow me to guide you through this "Wayne's World" stylee!

Kudos to honosuseri for a nicely written piece, totally flawed "reasoning" but kudos none the less! . . . I am still genuinely not sure if he is a Marketing agent or just under some form of Marketing "Mind Control" . . . I suspect the latter!

Well cheaper hardware infact can make it more difficult

Although in some sense there is a little truth in this the main purpose of the above passage is to give you the feeling that if you don't buy expensive hardware everything will be "more difficult" . . . this is a very subtle "subliminal" message . . .

• Pay Less = Difficult
• Pay More = Easy

The more you read up on the subject the limitations of the hardware will become clear

Ok now things are starting to really warm up, there are two tactics here, the first is another "subliminal" message

• Pay Less = Limitations
• Pay More = No limitations

The second tactic is to encourage you to "read up" . . . i.e expose yourself to some high grade marketing propaganda like what he has been reading or just to simply expose yourself to more "crazy overclockers" . . . you have already seen how infectious they can be! . . . a lot of us here on OcUk forums don't need to "read up" about this hardware as we have been using it for a ages . . i.e we have first hand user experience!

You are a gamer right?

And now here somes the big guns! . . . this is a trick question and by answering "yes" you give up your worldview as jakesnake and become a "gamer" . . . this is a form of mind control . . . of course your not a gamer, you are jakesnake (a human) and you play games, a lot of people don't know the difference . . . a gamer will spend extra money on hardware, merchandise and products to sustain his "Gamer" identity/lifestyle, it's a classic marketing trick, gaming mouse mats, gaming mice, gaming headsets, gaming apparel ("I frag" you caps etc) . . . and of course "Fatal1ty" products!

"Be like Fatal1ty Kids . . . spend spend £££"

A marketing mans wet dream . . . sadly gaming glory comes from skill and lots of practice not £££££

Obviously jakesnake, "never" give up your worldview as a human being/individual and adopt a pseudo marketing persona . . . you can play games till the cows come home but this does not make you "a gamer", just a guy that likes to plays games . . . big difference trust me!

You set a budget for your build and you divvy out the cash as best you can to each part to get your games running at a constant framerate at a decent resolution.

Although there is a little truth in this for the most part its based on flawed reasoning . . . everybody wants stuff for free (£0.00), sadly in the event you can't work out how to get your hardware for free then begrudgingly you have to accept that you will have to part with a little cash . . . as little as possible preferably . . . so one has a rough budget but what is most important is that one needs to work out what hardware is actually "needed" to get all the games running sweetly!

Most people don't want to "waste" cash £££ on stuff, one naturally looks for bargains, haggles, knows the difference between "need" and "want" . . .

Ok for arguements sake. You bought the X4 955 and went for the asus crosshair

and there it is again! . . . he really, really, really, really wants to buy the Asus Crosshair IV Formula himself but for reasons that are still unclear he can't . . . next best thing would be to try really, really, really hard to get JakeSnake to buy the Asus Crosshair IV Formula instead!

Extra expenditure for what?

it was a bit more cash [£65] but you figure the overclocking dooberries will help later as the rig ages and you got some cool toys to tinker with when its raining outside ;p

Ok, so firstly what the heck are "overclocking dooberries"? . . . these are what a non-overclocker "Thinks" they are paying the extra money for . . . the reality is this is pure marketing mumbo-jumbo to dupe a novice into paying an extra £65 . . .

Don't get me wrong in the hands of a skilled/experienced overclocker/benchmarker the more expensive motherboard should produce "slightly" better overclocking results but nothing that will manifest itself in your games JakeSnake . . . the better overclocking results are basically for people that subscribe to the e-slong ideology (i.e mine is bigger than yours, you lose!)

The other important distinction here is the question of "toys" . . . I suspect honosuseri doesn't play games or at least view them as "toys", he views the hardware itself as a "cool toy" . . . a "cool toy" that is worth paying an extra £65 for, it's red, it's mean, it's got lots of buttons! . . . on the other hand jakesnake I suspect "toys" to you are the actual games you play and the pick-ups you find in the games (enhanced sniper rifle, BFG, sonic grenades etc) . .

When it's "its raining outside" one of you will be pressing buttons on his motherboard and talking to people in the forums about his red vroom vroom motherboard and one of you will be immersed in a battle zone, pinned down by enemy snipers while trying to make it to the extraction zone! . . . HUGE difference! . . . although each to their own, whatever floats your boat and keeps your mind amused!

For the gfx you nabbed a 5870 and got the quickest ram you could with the lowest timings keeping in budget. Now look at the pic wayne posted.... see how the framerates are around 60fps or slightly more? This is good that’s what we want. The only tweaking we did was to up the multiplier to make the 955 a 965, saved £20 for pressing a few keys....bargain!

All this talk of "saved £20" and "bargain" is quite amusing after wasting £65 on something that has thus so far *not* made the slightest bit of difference? . . . The overclocking process described above (X4 955 to X4 965) could be done on a most AM3 motherboards? . . .

Instead of wasting £65 on a red motherboard how about putting it towards the best graphics card JakeSnake could afford . . offset the "very" high asking price of the Radeon HD 5870 to this . .

Now that's what I call a "bargain"

Fastforward a year. There have been driver updates which have helped keep the gfx card competitive but the day will come when a game is released and your kit just wont maintain the 60fps......so what do we do? We try and push the kit just that lil bit harder before we hand over any more cash.

You already wasted £65 quid so yeah I tend to agree we should try not to "hand over any more cash"

We can up the cpu speed and the gpu speed, update our drivers. Taking our time and checking its stable and for our patience we are rewarded with some more fps and hopefully hit that 60fps and our rig is now competive again. All is well till the next "breakthrough" game but wait!!! That mobo i invested in can run upto 3 ati cards.....or more economical/practical to run two at 16X

Hehe there it is again . . . it's confusing when honosuseri says "I" if he if referring to himself or JakeSnake? . . . or by this stage in the Asus Crosshair IV Formula sales pitch if he has "assimilated" JakeSnakes mind into the Crosshair IV Formula "Hive Mind" (resistance is futile!) hehe!

Poor guy really wants that motherboard, maybe if it was priced a bit keener he would have bought it by now? . . . . regardless at least he has mentioned Tri-Fire (anyone running three Radeons?) and also mentioned Crossfire X16/x16 which I don't think offers any noticable gaming improvement over Crossfire X8/X8 (happy to be shown some good data though!) . . .

I wonder if in a years time it will be a good idea to Crossfire a second Radeon HD 5870 or perhaps sell it and buy a new "uber" next gen card? . . . if the case of the latter we have had two spare PCI-E x16 slots sitting empty for a year!

We google benchmarks and see if by doubling up the 5870 (which is now cheap like the budgie) we can get back into the 60fps club without dropping £200+ on another current gfx card

Ah yes this confirms it, honosuseri has "consumed" JakeSnake . . . they are now "one"

Now i know there are guys who enjoy overclocking. I can see its appeal, pushing the envelope of tech and seeing what is possible

I suspect honosuseri has never overclocked a computer in his life . . . he needs the "Wizz-Bang" buttons to press to make it happen maybe?

I like to think of it this way.....you know the saying "necessity is the mother of invention" we find solutions for our problems as they arise

What the heck is this bit about? . . . Anyone who knows anything about computer hardware tends to do their homework and knows about any problems before buying a single piece of hardware . . . Some homework is done, the most cost effective parts are purchased, the machine is built and the gaming begins . . . nothing needs to be invented?

if we were clever and picked the right parts at the start we were able to push the lifespan of our rig and saved some cash!!!

It's lucky for you mate that you came to OcUk forums . . . there are plenty of us here that know how to save cash . . . Resistance is futile!

I honour you sir for that most hilarious post . . . I have no doubt in my mind that you are a superb and amusing guy and I commend you for a very nicely constructed post . . . it's just painfully obvious to me personally that you are a novice who has been utterly consumed by marketing hype and does not understand hardware to the level that a great deal of OcUK forums users do . .

Saving the best till last!

Sometimes you have to spend a lil money to make money lol

Hehe, I would ask you to explain that one but I have a feeling you can't . . . I have no doubts in my mind your reasoning is flawed . . but not beyond repair!

Big.Wayne - Studying Philosophy (Epistemology/Ethics)

 

[Muel]

This is getting beyond childish now Wayne, give it up. Do you not understand how forums work? People ask for opinions. Other people post their opinions, and a discussion breaks out.

What is not supposed to happen is one pedantic opinionated guy coming along, ripping into everyone with his 15 years experience and telling them where they're wrong.

You just disected a post for no apparant reason other than to try and prove a point.

Would you like to apply some factual information to this now? For example, the Crosshair is a good overclocking board, this has been proven time and again.

When I first joined here you were really helpful and nice to everyone, but now you seem to believe your opinions are law...

As one of the longest standing members of the forum, I think your attitude is terrible these days. Give everyone a break!

I'm not going to be replying in here again, I hope jakesnake takes everyone's opinions into account, asseses the situation and makes his own decision.

Also please take note, I'm not disagreeing with your recommendation, just the way you appear to put yourself across in this thread. And in fact, in general these days.

 

[Big.Wayne]

[Off Topic:]

Hello Muel . . .

Do you not understand how forums work?

I believe I do, I'm not sure if you do though?

People ask for opinions. Other people post their opinions, and a discussion breaks out

You just disected a post for no apparant reason other than to try and prove a point

We are arguing a point? . . . this particular thread is a continuation of another thread that you are unaware of . . . it would seem you are unaware of a lot of things Muel but none the less feel free to rip into me "ad hominem" instead of addressing one single point I made . . .

You seem to have been directing your ire at me for some time without making a valid points hence why I've not replied to you in a while . . if you have nothing more to add to help jakesnake or cannot find a flaw in my argument then please go elsewhere with your good mood! . . . have you got nothing better to do?

 

['Wes]

Simple answer, it's easier to get a 965 to 4GHz in my experience than a 955 that won't go above 3.8GHz. My current 965 does 4GHz with around 15c gap from max temps, my 955 wouldn't go above 3.8GHz when i had it. I also use the Gigabyte mobo Wayne posted up with the 965 as well, but to cut some slack for the 955, it had parts that weren't as good as the parts i chose for my 965 system, the 955 system was pre-built with your average parts.

 

[Big.Wayne]

Hmmm . . . I'm not sure what can be concluded from that 'Wes or indeed if this is information that is relevant to a non-benchmarker or e-slonger? (not saying you are an e-slonger btw!) . . .

Do you think the difference between 3.8GHz or 4.0GHz is something that would be noticable in a game? . . . or is it just one of those nice "fuzzy" feelings that the processor frequency is a nice round number?

Hopefully you take these as genuine questions and I hope no offence is caused!

 

[jakesnake]

i value everybodys thoughts and suggestions on this forum.
otherwise why am i here? in the end every1 will have contributed
because ill have taken bits from each suggestion
and counter suggestion that has been posted.

but i have to say, that post by big wayne was legendary
i actually laffed out loud wen the pict of the guy came
up holding the motherboard. LOL classic

its all just banter lads remmber that.

 

[Martini1991]

Timmy Logan won't be impressed.

 

['Wes]

Do you think the difference between 3.8GHz or 4.0GHz is something that would be noticable in a game? . . . or is it just one of those nice "fuzzy" feelings that the processor frequency is a nice round number?

There's no difference at all, the only reason i built myself a new computer was because the computer my parents used was 7 years old, so it got replaced with the 955 system and i built a new computer. I now regret not choosing the 955 because there is no clear difference between the two, but i am confident if the 955 system had the components my 965 system has, it could do the same.

Once i built my system and everything had settled in, i decided to see how far i could push it and see if it could beat the 955, which it did quite comfortably by reaching 4GHz, a 200MHz gap between the two processors, but i didn't keep it at that setting because i didn't see the point, so i left it at stock.

To answer your question, no and i also don't see a difference between 3.4GHz and 4GHz either tbh.

 

[Big.Wayne]

a 2GHz gap between the two processors

Holy typo batman!

 

['Wes]

Holy typo batman!

Lol, bah, too late to change now.

 

[rjk]

lets not let this get out of hand please guys

 

[MooMoo444]

Some people like to get . . . carried away.

Each to his own . . . or something

 

[honosuseri]

We have to bear in mind that big.wayne is jakes saviour......we are all witness to the second coming of christ ;p We are all the devil and trying to lead jake astray! Waynes holier than thou attitude is annoying plenty of members of this forum. While i can agree with some of his opinions and i already stated he spec'd jake a great gaming rig, how he makes himself heard reminds me of a spoilt child spitting its dummy out.

I said for arguments sake that is a spec he might have and suggested how he can keep the rig competitive over time. We are all aware of your opinion of the crosshair mobo wayne. We get it now you clearly spent ages building that post to try and justify your opinion....never the less people will still stand by the crosshair IV as it is a superior mobo with more features than yours so it will naturally be more expensive.

Truth be told if i had said waynes gigabyte mobo in my post we could have saved a whole screen of this thread. We are now in a overclockers part of the forum which you have shown interest in jake......take a look back at the sigs of some of the posters....notice a recurring mobo?

I have done my share of overclocking. The reason I started to dabble in it is to extract that extra bit of performance and try and stave off buying new gear until absolutely necessary. I'm not a hardcore overclocker but i respect the guys that put the time and money in to see whats possible. Don't call them names and belittle what they do, it's these guys that will help you when you require that extra bit of grunt from your rig..... they do the leg work so we dont have to and i applaud them for it.

When your ready jake im sure you will start another thread and post a budget. Then we can see what parts are available, see what is on offer and suggest a good gaming rig with potential.

I can say with some confidence that wayne wont suggest anything drastically different from me. He will spec his trusted GB mobo choose the fastest low latency ram to aid with oc'ing on his choice of high-end mobo and most likely an X4 phenom ii as it will have decent performance and be cheaper than the hex cores. This allows the difference in money to goto the gfx card. As the GB mobo does X8 xfire a 5870 will probably be spec'd. When the 5870 isnt getting the holy grail of 60fps you can then consider a second one. Come that time you need to do a lil more research as to wether it's cost effective to do so or replace it completely. A nvidia 460 or higher maybe suggested but this removes the option of running dual cards on the mobo....why cut off your nose to spite your face?

If you want the rig to have potential you need to put money into a good psu (some will argue the case too) a decent chipset mobo and of course as gaming is your preference a better than budget GPU.

I am no novice i have as many years experience as wayne, i've been out fixing machines earning a living today not ranting on this forum because peoples opinions differ from mine. Enjoy building and using your rig, you will learn a lot from the experience and can impart what you learn to others.....i just hope you dont get as jaded as some on this forum in the years to come.

 

[james.miller]

the formula IV is a very expensive way of overclocking a quad (or a hex for that matter) . most of the touted features are actually already supported by asus's cheaper motherboards, like my m4a89gtd pro usb3 (silly name), they just dont tell you they're supported unless you go looking.

I dont know who's opinion that is aligned with, but that's the truth. my opinion is that the formula IV is a waste of money unless you're going balls-out and you're at least water-cooled of not phase/LN2 and even then the actually difference you're likely to see is debatable.

 

[jakesnake]

hono i laughed at big waynes banter, now because of this hes my "saviour". LOL good 1

i may of had the crosshair IV penciled in (youll never no lol) because of the
better OC potential. but then,,sum1 said "im waiting for the new AMD mobos,
I feel if they are backwards compatible with all AMD cpus i'll have a better variety of choice and upgrade paths." hmmm i wonder who that was

the saving of around £70 by resisting the "bling bling" of the crosshair IV
(believe me im a sucker for it, side window with led fans on cases even
gets me) will justify maybe buying a new AM3+ sooner rather than later.
providing they r backwards compatible ofcourse

as i said its gonna be a fw weeks before i actually place my order
so things could change again. lol

wer i live its none stop harsh banter at times wen me and my m8s
are all out havin a good time. take it with a pinch of salt and give it back

may the build continue LOL

 

[Big.Wayne]

honosuseri,

I must say I'm a little dissapointed by your reply . . . You managed to avoid every single point I made . . . .

I said for arguments sake that is a spec he might have and suggested how he can keep the rig competitive over time.

The reason we are having this debate is that you have been suggesting the Asus Crosshair IV Formula for no good reason . . . . if you simply "want" it for yourself then go ahead and buy it . . . once you start to recommend it to other people don't be surprised if you find me there every time dismissing every single selling point you make . . . clearly you have tried hard to build a case for why someone should buy it and have failed to make any reasonable points stick . . apart from its red . . . I find it very strange that you would defend a board thats designed to extract extra dollar from some bodies pocket $$$ when there are much more affordable options?

you clearly spent ages building that post to try and justify your opinion

Well yes I did take a long time constructing that post but not to justify my opinion but rather to destroy any attempt a cool kid has to "Justify" the need for such a board . . .

You are either part of the problem or part of the solution and right now you are most definitely part of the problem . . . don't you care about your fellow computer buddies getting good value for money? . . . don't you see people are getting "duped" into buying into a pipedream? . . .

Can you not see you are acting like a walking billboard on behalf of the Corporations, misleading anyone that will listen to you into believing the Crosshair IV Formula is a worthwhile investment . . . if you would listen to the points I am making there is a chance you may "wake up" out your sleep and see he deception which is taking place! . . . I'm your friend not your enemy!

never the less people will still stand by the crosshair IV as it is a superior mobo with more features than yours so it will naturally be more expensive.

Yes, purchase justification complex is a complicated beast . . . people are not in a hurry to realise they made a mistake . . . they would rather get other people to make the same mistake than admit they made an error . . . and they will fight to the death to defend their precious purchase . . . speaking of which you keep referring to the Gigabyte GA-890GPA-UD3H as "Wayne's Board" . . . why?

I use an AM2+ board with an AM3 chip which I purchased last Nov, the ASUS M4A785D-M PRO . . . cost me £57.00 from OcUK and allowed me to use my existing DDR2, totally brilliant board which overclocked my humble AMD® Athlon™ II X4 to 3.7GHz . . . if a nOObzilla like me can get great results from such an affordable motherboard then anyone can . . .

So tell me again . . . what makes the ASUS Crosshair IV Formula a "superior mobo" . . . dig deep and see if you can find one single relevant reason why anyone with an ounce of overclocking skill actually "needs" such a board?

Truth be told

Just for the record honosuseri, you are debating with a Rational-Philosopher specializing in epistemology . . . I know a bit better than an average thinker what is Truth and what is Falsehood . . . I believe you are dealing Falsehoods as your are vehemently "suggesting" an expensive product to people without making a rational or reasonable argument to back up your claims of why your average user "needs" this . . . if you don't express yourself a bit better and find some damn good reasons soon you need to back down otherwise you will turn into grey-goo defending a product that in reality is meaningless to yourself . . . .

The reason you are getting agitated is simple this:

"It's not the questions or the questioner but rather the Falsehood of the answers one has been living"

Don't attack the philosopher . . . that doesn't help you in any way and only confirms you are losing the argument . . .

take a look back at the sigs of some of the posters....notice a recurring mobo?

again, this is "flawed" reasoning . . . it doesn't matter if 1000 people owned the expensive mobo, that doesn't "Justify" another person should buy it . . . . all that is needed is one single good "reason" . . . it is not enough to say "look those thousand people have it so that justifies the extra £65 expense" . . . do you understand that? . . . do you think we are sheep or do you think we are individuals capable of critical thinking?

I have done my share of overclocking

Cool . . . from what you spoke about so far I didn't pick up on that? . . . tell me a little about your conquests so far please?

The reason I started to dabble in it is to extract that extra bit of performance and try and stave off buying new gear until absolutely necessary.

You and me both . . . same goes for a great many people here . . of course some of us have as fast systems as other people while spending a great deal less £££ . . .

Don't call them names and belittle what they do, it's these guys that will help you when you require that extra bit of grunt from your rig..... they do the leg work so we don’t have to and i applaud them for it.

Thanks very much . . . I spent at least the past five years on this forum helping as many people as I can . . . I feel I have helped a lot of stressed out people get a good results and in a small way that makes me feel good!

Kinda moved on from that now into helping people get back into the original Old-School overclocking "Bang-for-Buck" Ideology instead of seeing the scene getting swallowed up by the money grabbing Corporations . . .

When the 5870 isnt getting the holy grail of 60fps you can then consider a second one.

yeah that's an option . . . as is selling the single card and replacing it with a 2011 model (or two!) . . .

If you want the rig to have potential you need to put money into a good psu

If my memory serves me well, I think each Radeon HD 5870 pulls about 160watts full load (card only) and 350-400watts *full* system load . . . The evergreen tech really does drop the power requirements down! . . . I think you may have been away from the "cutting edge" hardware scene for quite a while so I suggest you get the coffee on and get some homework done!

OCZ ModXStream Pro 500w

£56.99 inc

 

[Tikkabhuna]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but it's worth to mention that Cool n quiet on my 955 stopped working at a x19 multiplier. So for 4GHz I had something like 240MHz x 16.5. Not sure if you want cool n quiet but it is nice to save some power.

 

[stulid]

so are you just wanting to know the difference between the Crosshair IV and the Gigabyte 890UD3?

I can think of two from the top of my head.

 

[honosuseri]

Wayne we are probably more similar than you care to realise.

I also own that asus M4A785D-M PRO. I used it recently to build a nice lil htpc as i had plenty of DDR2 cluttering up the place amongst other spares. I coupled it with the 555, the chance of unlocking it to an X4 i felt was worth the gamble for £70 and since i bought an aftermarket heatsink i knew if it wasnt needed to cool the unlocked cores it would help with the OC. That said i got lucky and as it is more than capable of its purpose i haven't needed to start tweaking it.....yet.

The entire build (less case and tvcard, peripherals etc) came to just under £250. It was built for a purpose and on a budget to keep my other half happy. Im more than capable of recognising decent features within a budget without going all "magpie" and heading for something shiny ;p

I also took the layout of the board into consideration, why GB mATX mobos have to put the sata ports inline with the express lane i do not understand.... not a major concern granted but enough to sway me to the asus mobo with 4 ram slots and sata ports safely out the way of any possibly large gfx card i may fit later on in the rigs lifespan. There is a lot to consider when building a rig.....we both know this although i know you doubt my experience at doing so.

I'm not trying to waste jakes money. We persuaded him to hold off for the possibly soon released newer ati gfx cards and onto the more lets say cost efficient AMD route. Hopefully by then he will have a greater understanding of what he wants and we can see what is available when he is ready to drop the hammer, hopefully there will be some bargains to be had.

I look forward to helping him and discussing the options out sensibly with you. It's all up in the air at the mo but once i know he is going to put his money where our mouthes are then the talk gets deadly serious.

I dont expect us to always see eye to eye but please quote the whole sentence or paragraph i post dont make highlights of them. You mostly agree with what i say but repeatedly cut it short and add the final thought as your own!

 

[Big.Wayne]

im not an overclocker

I'm not trying to waste jakes money

honosuseri,

We both know you have on multiple occasions "suggested" to JakeSnake he buy an inappropriate and overpriced ££ piece of hardware for his "needs" . . . I have spent a few days talking with you and asking you to backup your "reasoning" behind your suggestions . . . sadly and despite me making some very clear points why this is not the best idea you have failed on multiple occasions to produce any rational evidence to counter my arguement or indeed backup your claims . . .

Until such a time when you have tried a little overclocking yourself could I politely ask you to leave the business of what hardware JakeSnake "needs" to those OcUK forum members with a little more hands on experience . . this will be serving his best interests which I hope you understand . . .

Thanks in advance for your co-operation!


[Off Topic]

Wayne we are probably more similar than you care to realise

Really? . . . which of the following qualities would you say we have in common then?

• A spoilt child spitting its dummy out
• As jaded
• Holier than thou attitude is annoying
• Jakes saviour
• Needs to work on diplomacy
• Ranting on this forum because peoples opinions differ from mine
• Starting to test my nerves
• The second coming of christ