Koran burning in reaction to 9/11

Vita · 9 Sep 2010 at 00:57

Robboftw said:
That just sounds... insane. Do you honestly think they are burning it to see if Allah will strike them down? Really?

It is stupid to accuse most people of wishing they were a Muslim, you just dont do things like that... or well maybe you do.

C'mon. Back when the Pharoes where around, they asked Moses to show them "his lord". Maybe they haven't stated, but my thinking can go quite lateral. I do think that though, the reason they have given doesn't justify it for me.

Where have I accused most people of wishing they were Muslim. I'm happy for people to have their religion and what they believe in. I will not say they are wrong, or they're foolish to follow what they follow. And No, I don't do things like that.

dustofnations · 9 Sep 2010 at 00:57

Rainmaker said:
According to Vita you actually don't like the old testament because you want to become it.

Adhering to some literature targeted at an audience that had no fridges, prophylaxis or pharmaceuticals... No thanks!

Rainmaker · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:00

Vita said:
Where have I accused most people of wishing they were Muslim. I'm happy for people to have their religion and what they believe in. I will not say they are wrong, or they're foolish to follow what they follow. And No, I don't do things like that.

I think this was the bit being referred to:

Vita said:
I think people are so against Islam because they're scared. They're scared that it is the right religion.

As I said, rather shallow/short-sighted. Please ensure you caught my previous post too (its the last post on page 2 if you're using "man-sized" pages). I didn't want you to miss it and have a misunderstanding of intentions develop.

dustofnations · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:00

Rainmaker said:
As you said, 20 years ago there was much less, if not nil(?) association of Islam with extreme terrorism as there is today.

Ask the Russians about that! They were defeated (sorta) by the Islamic militants in Afghanistan more than 20 years ago. Religion and conflict have always been inextricably intertwined, it just depends on your perspective whether you regard it as terrorism or not.

edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

Interestingly, the soviets still lost despite inflicting 34:1 K/D on their enemy.

Robbo · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:01

Vita said:
C'mon. Back when the Pharoes where around, they asked Moses to show them "his lord". Maybe they haven't stated, but my thinking can go quite lateral. I do think that though, the reason they have given doesn't justify it for me.

Where have I accused most people of wishing they were Muslim. I'm happy for people to have their religion and what they believe in. I will not say they are wrong, or they're foolish to follow what they follow. And No, I don't do things like that.

I'm sorry, but -

Vita said:
I think people are so against Islam because they're scared. They're scared that it is the right religion.

Are the ramblings of a person who is not quite wired up right in my book.

Nanoman · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:02

Vita said:
But no-one calls them terrorists? I think people are so against Islam because they're scared. They're scared that it is the right religion.

You are deluded.

Vita · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:03

Rainmaker said:
Let's be clear here. I'm not having a go at you, and I deeply respect your religious belief and your right to it. I'm sorry if I came across any other way, genuinely. However you have to admit, saying casually that people fear Islam and/or Muslims because they know it's the correct religion was a bit... shallow? Short sighted?

It's ok, and no you didn't. But you are right, I probably had a little keyboard warrior moment and my comment did come across shallow. I apologise. I know it's easy to say you apologise, but I genuinely mean it.

As you said, 20 years ago there was much less, if not nil(?) association of Islam with extreme terrorism as there is today. As you further correctly state, this is down to extremists (who by definition don't represent your majority). In that case, surely your statement is self-defeating and you actually acknowledge the FEAR (aka TERROR) was caused by the, um, TERRORists?

That's all I meant.

I wouldn't say it's self defeating. It's when the people have now started thinking every Muslim is a back-pack wearing bomber. Islam is not about blowing stuff up. Yes, if someone harms your family, kills a family member, you have the right to slay them. But to kill innocent people is just not on. NEITHER is mocking someone religious beliefs. So I apologise again for my earlier comment. It's just it upsets me, that people want to go ahead to burn the Qur'an.

There is no need to, if you're angry about Islam, do a protest like everyone else does.

dustofnations · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:10

As a more general observation;

There are entrenched views on both sides, I really doubt we'll see any meaningful change regarding "religious tensions" in our lifetimes. Quite often you don't see any positive movement until the old hard-liners die of old age, and more progressive elements fill their boots.

We'll see. What do you chaps think?

DAnDan · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:15

It's just religious nutters being religious nutters, sadly I've got quite used to it recently.

Robbo · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:16

Vita said:
Yes, if someone harms your family, kills a family member, you have the right to slay them.

You have the 'right to slay' them if someone HARMS your family, or only if they kill them?

Vita said:
There is no need to, if you're angry about Islam, do a protest like everyone else does.

Not many people do protests really, most people don't really care.

craig3000 · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:16

If I was the president I would immediately order his arrest, freedom of speech in this case can suck on a kangaroo testicle. Way too make things worse for yourself and America, Terry. Well DONE :rolleyes:

With any luck some good folk will trash the event

Vita · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:18

Robboftw said:
You have the 'right to slay' them if someone HARMS your family, or only if they kill them?

Not many people do protests really, most people don't really care.

Kills. Not harm.

Yeah most people don't care. But only do if it affects them. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Btw didn't this guy who's organised get arrested for child porn?

Rainmaker · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:19

Vita said:
There is no need to, if you're angry about Islam, do a protest like everyone else does.

The thing is though, how do you define 'everyone else'? If we're to believe the TV, Muslim protests in foreign lands (and even the UK) involve waving placards calling for death to Westerners, the burning of UK and US flags, and the burning of bibles.

So the church pastor referred to in the OP is in fact 'protesting' in what appears to be a very 'Muslim' type way. </Devil's advocate>

Robbo · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:20

Vita said:
Kills. Not harm.

Yeah most people don't care. But only do if it affects them.

So out of interest, would you do that then if someone murdered a member of your family, or would you go to the Police like a normal person?

Rainmaker · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:21

Robboftw said:
So out of interest, would you do that then if someone murdered a member of your family, or would you go to the Police like a normal person?

Well to be fair, it's not just a Muslim thing. I mean how many times do you hear "If they did that to my son/daughter/mum/dad, I'd kill them before they ever got to trial." or whatever? It's not as common in practice as in speech, but you could say the same for Muslims too? I'm sure more books say it than people actually do it, especially in the West?

Robbo · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:25

Rainmaker said:
Well to be fair, it's not just a Muslim thing. I mean how many times do you hear "If they did that to my son/daughter/mum/dad, I'd kill them before they ever got to trial." or whatever? It's not as common in practice as in speech, but you could say the same for Muslims too? I'm sure more books say it than people actually do it, especially in the West?

I know that, most people say such things out of anger at the time of such events happening.

I just wanted to know what his stance would be. For example, if he is compelled by his religion to seek and destroy the person, or can choose an alternative route.

Vita · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:25

Rainmaker said:
The thing is though, how do you define 'everyone else'? If we're to believe the TV, Muslim protests in foreign lands (and even the UK) involve waving placards calling for death to Westerners, the burning of UK and US flags, and the burning of bibles.

Everyone else as in the people of many religions/cultures/casts around the world. TV is over hype, tbh you can't trust it. Even Muslim news channels go over the top sometimes. Yeah, I've seen the placards on TV. And yes they burn effergys too. But c'mon, burning the Qur'an? I just can't seem to get my head round how that is a protest.

So the church pastor referred to in the OP is in fact 'protesting' in what appears to be a very 'Muslim' type way. </Devil's advocate>

Yeah, because Muslims protest burning their own book. :rolleyes:

Where are placards calling for death to Westerners? And then where is the Qur'an. It's in a different league, it's not a thing to protest with.

I could understand if the pastor held up a placard saying death to Muslim extremists, or something along them lines. But doing what he wants to do, totally the wrong way to go about it, and yes, even extremists go the wrong way about doing what they do.

As a Individual myself, I believe matters such as these should be left into Gods hands. Whatever happens happens, I can only do so much and that is to give my opinion on a matter.

Vita · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:26

Robboftw said:
So out of interest, would you do that then if someone murdered a member of your family, or would you go to the Police like a normal person?

Nice question to put me on the spot. :cool:

I would go to the Police. I would go to the police as I would rather have Justice, then to take a life. I don't think I could do it. In War yes, in a situation like that, no.

Rainmaker · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:28

Vita, fair enough. As I said I was merely soliciting your opinion and playing devil's advocate (interesting phrase given the nature of the thread, no?

). BTW I have seen Muslim protests on TV where they burned Christian bibles and UK/US flags - hence my comparison to the Pastor's "protest". Neither is right imho, for the record.

Robbo · 9 Sep 2010 at 01:28

Vita said:
Yeah, because Muslims protest burning their own book.

No, they burn everyone else's books and effigies of their leaders, and hold up signs wishing death to the West and so on.

There was a quite large protest in London of all places where such things were happening, outrageous.

(I'm not saying the people doing that were representative of all Muslims of course, just like this American chimp isn't representative of anyone else)

Vita said:
Nice question to put me on the spot.

I would go to the Police.

You're welcome, good answer.