Keep Rates / T&Cs
- Thread starter Vertigo
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Caporegime
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The "keep rate" is about 25%, and on average, so far I deliver around 500 to 600 photos, all processed to the ones you see here.
What really kills my keep rate is formals, I would take like 6, 7 shots for a simple 4 people group shots, and a big wedding party I take like 15. Blinkers are a real annoyance. So from the 15, I would deliver the best one. There's no reason to deliver all 15 even if no one blinked, imagine going through the disc and get to that point on the TV. one after another, all taken a fraction of a second after another, identical pose, position, light and expression. It would be a chore, and might think the disc is broken.
The ones I rejects are, blur, out of focus, accidentals, duplicates, missed exposed (that I can't save). It doesn't mean I bin utter boring dull shots, if I see a photo of certain member of the wedding party in thar photo that I haven't caught in other ones, As long as that shot isn't any of the above, i would include it. But luckily that don't happen often, during the course of the night I do a routine a photographing people I've not done so already, like picking them off a mental list, and even during that i don't just click and move on, I watch them for a bit so I get the right composition, and if I catch them laugh or do something interesting during that period I am watching them then great, if not them it'll still be an okay shot.
In terms of the album, it depends on the number of spreads. For a 20 spreads (it's count in spreads, not pages, as you can't have odd number of pages), around 100 photos for a 12x12 album.
What really kills my keep rate is formals, I would take like 6, 7 shots for a simple 4 people group shots, and a big wedding party I take like 15. Blinkers are a real annoyance. So from the 15, I would deliver the best one. There's no reason to deliver all 15 even if no one blinked, imagine going through the disc and get to that point on the TV. one after another, all taken a fraction of a second after another, identical pose, position, light and expression. It would be a chore, and might think the disc is broken.
The ones I rejects are, blur, out of focus, accidentals, duplicates, missed exposed (that I can't save). It doesn't mean I bin utter boring dull shots, if I see a photo of certain member of the wedding party in thar photo that I haven't caught in other ones, As long as that shot isn't any of the above, i would include it. But luckily that don't happen often, during the course of the night I do a routine a photographing people I've not done so already, like picking them off a mental list, and even during that i don't just click and move on, I watch them for a bit so I get the right composition, and if I catch them laugh or do something interesting during that period I am watching them then great, if not them it'll still be an okay shot.
In terms of the album, it depends on the number of spreads. For a 20 spreads (it's count in spreads, not pages, as you can't have odd number of pages), around 100 photos for a 12x12 album.
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Caporegime
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Oh, at every wedding without fail, i get asked how many shots I've taken by at least 5 people, without fail. I always say the same thing, that I don't know. Which is the truth, i don't count as I am shooting with multiple cards, and the counter counts down, and depending of what I shot, the file size differs for each photo, even in RAW. To know the exact number I would have to download all the cards. I know how many blank cards i got left and I know roughly if I have enough to last the night, that's the most important part for me and the client. As long as i don't run out of storage I can keep shooting and don't miss anything. That's what's important, not how many I've shot.
The other reason I don't say, even if I know is that if I did, word might get round and some clients will not understand the concept of culling photos had demands to see every single shot.
That's why I have contracts, if it ever come to that.
Most important point is I deliver good images, and I always satisfy my quota. often exceed it by 50%.
The other reason I don't say, even if I know is that if I did, word might get round and some clients will not understand the concept of culling photos had demands to see every single shot.
That's why I have contracts, if it ever come to that.
Most important point is I deliver good images, and I always satisfy my quota. often exceed it by 50%.
You do exactly the same as me. The culling process can be boring as hell - but yes, I reject repetition, unsavable exposure, blinking, dull composition. I make a point of saying to the client at time of booking that I do not promise to get a shot of every person there - I also now make a point of saying, once they are rejected, they are rejected for good and they will never see the light of day. But it still doesnt stop people asking "can we see the shots that didnt make the cut?".. I would say that happens on 1 out of 3 weddings - funnily enough my last wedding, which was a cracking set, and due to the number of great shots we ended up delivering over 800 in total - they still asked if there was any others they could see. Does my fricking head in.
ANOTHER big bugbear is people who say - "Can you photoshop ABC so it looks like XYZ?" - sorry love, no can do.. People in this day and age think photoshop is just a big red button on my desktop that I press that "makes pictures better" - I tell them I can photoshop a turd, but its still ultimately a turd. Also, if they want prettier pictures, bring a prettier face! I remember another time when one particularly horrifying mother-of-the-bride said to me "Is there anything you can do about my extra chins" - I so wanted to say "I can put you on a diet, make you do more exercise, that would be a start.."
Oh! the life of a wedding photographer.
I totally understand where you're coming from.
People really bug me with, can you photoshop my chin, my make up e.t.c.
Soldato
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It annoys me when people ask for all of the photos, like they don't trust my judgement.
I had someone recently ask for all of the RAW files, I kindly told them to FO (obviously in a more professional manner)
I had someone recently ask for all of the RAW files, I kindly told them to FO (obviously in a more professional manner)
Now that would be
a) Lying, which is unprofessional
b) Taking them for a fool when they clearly remember you shot at certain area / person.
So they watch every pic you take?
a) is the more important factor as if you got called out on lying then your integrity can be called into question. If they hire you as a professional photographer then surely they should just trust your professional judgement.
Been following the thread for a while, great pics Ray!
Been following the thread for a while, great pics Ray!
Actually this happens more often than you think - a few weeks ago I shot a wedding where the groom clearly remembers my assistant (not Jake) taking a photo of his cufflinks as he was putting them on - however due to the fact that the shots was shot at 1.8 and the focus was missed I rejected the shot(s) - they asked about that one.
You have to be upfront and say "Sorry it didn`t make the cut because...."
Well this has just happened to us tonight for the first time. The couple said they loved their photos (the got nearly 900!) and we have sent them a proof of their book, yet they have come back asking if there were any 'alternatives' they might like that haven't been included, and that they thought they would get ALL the digital copies of the photos we took (i.e. around 3000!)
Mrs has sent them a well worded email basically saying trust our judgement as the professionals please, but we shall see...
Mrs has sent them a well worded email basically saying trust our judgement as the professionals please, but we shall see...
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We have all this covered in the T&Cs they sign when booking - its not small print, its there if the client takes the effort to read it. Basically it states that the photographers decision is final as to what shots are presented as part of the final package. We also have a part in there that stipulates that we do not promise to capture any particular image although we will try out utmost. The T&Cs were given to us by our insurance company but has also been tweaked by the BIPP. If anyone wants a copy of my T&Cs for their files or future use I would be more than happy to send an electronic copy to you. Its obviously tailored to my company name - but you can just tweak as you see fit.. I also have a rather good and comprehensive assistant release form that you can get your second shooter to sign that relinquishes all their rights to the images they capture when shooting for you.. again - its pretty much watertight.. free if anyone wants a copy..
Sorry Ray for this slight thread hijack.. Great pics!!
I'd be really interested to read both documents as well Mark, if you're still happy to send them through - purely out of interest and especially in light of the other thread re wedding 'tog contracts 
EDIT: Email in trust!
EDIT: Email in trust!
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Soldato
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Funny isn't it, I like people like that...being a photo retoucher would be terrible without them...lol
I'd be very interested in seeing these if you didn't mind sending to my email in trust, thanks.
Valve
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Yea we've got T&C's too, says it all in there, haven't bluntly pointed it out to them yet as hoping it is just a simple miscommunication, they're a nice couple....
Although groom has a law degree, so surprised he hasn't spotted it
Soldato
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Mark, so we stay on track with this thread I suggest you make a separate thread and not to deviate from Raymond's Wedding thread.
Saying that I would like a copy please?
Email in trust. Thank you very much.
Saying that I would like a copy please?
Email in trust. Thank you very much.
(I split these away from Raymond Lin's Wedding Thread)