**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

[just Scott]

actually now that I am thinking about it, I thought you guys Scott and Kar had no problems with early game against terran, Scott you said you usually fe and can hold off a terran usually and I can't imagen kar having problems with early terran he's 1000 diamond toss player, whatever you're doing is working then why change it

The charge-a-lot + force-fielding was just my advice to Alex as he was problem with early terran aggression and my point was its a decent opening when it is relevant, by no means do I mean you should open with it all the time.

Was just going to try it. I see no reason not to, I don't really care if I lose.

 

[Indie]

Decided I want to learn another race besides terran so if anyone wants a few easy games vs a n00b zerg player let me know.

WarSmith.378

Awesome, i like Zerg players!
be prepared to get rolled most games though! all in the name of learning!
give me a shout if you need any help.. and post replays

they don't hard counter them. Zealots counter rauders without cc, with cc it gets harder for zealots but still just plain mass zealot has as good chance, add decent focefields and they will melt away early mm.

Now mass charge-a-lot again melts away marine marauder and you have the option of opening with charge zealots which is very effective.

Also early game, plain marauder gets destroyed by plain zealots with a single sentry, If I go up the ramp, ff behind me and zealots destroy rauders, and then when he get's charge, its guarding shield and peck away my marauders while I try to micro away.

I used to do cc with early rauder to harass toss, but where I am now, it doesn't work.

not being funny, but from both sides of this debate, its pretty lame! who builds straight Zealots... who builds straight Marauders? nobody, because its daft, you're always going to have a mix. its just that the protoss mix is a bit more difficult to get, containing 3 unit types and cast abilities. Terran can 1a move and throw in some simple micro.

Terran will always have an early game edge in TvP imo, unless you remove marauders, which nobody wants that! you may as well just play BW if you do that... what i don't see is where Toss have the advantage late game.. Terran just need ghosts or vikings surely?

I need to play more of this matchup so i can accuratly share my views, but thats what i think atm

Putting cc on the engineering bay and increasing the cost slightly would balance it out imo. For such a strong ability it does come very easily. Saying that, it's not insanely OP'd. Any protoss that doesn't FE can hold off terran early aggression so long as they have a reasonably early robo bay.

That was discussed in the BETA, i think its quite a good idea, conc shell is pretty awesome, and its insanely cheap and easy obtainable. I think delaying it would be quite a nice balance.

 

[Bleek]

I might be silly here but I can't get build shortcuts to work, for example I select my Terran Barracks and press 'M' but Marines aren't built?

All the shortcuts I find on the net suggest that to be the correct key - any help?

 

[platypus]

Well I'm fairing ok with Terran, I just don't find it interesting enough. I just end up turtling and creating large armies.

 

[platypus]

I might be silly here but I can't get build shortcuts to work, for example I select my Terran Barracks and press 'M' but Marines aren't built?

All the shortcuts I find on the net suggest that to be the correct key - any help?

You'd fare better pressing 'a' . Just mouse over build orders in the appropriate building, and it will give you the hotkey in brackets().

 

[Indie]

I might be silly here but I can't get build shortcuts to work, for example I select my Terran Barracks and press 'M' but Marines aren't built?

All the shortcuts I find on the net suggest that to be the correct key - any help?

A is the shortcut for Marines..

M i believe was the old SC:BW shortcut...

 

[Bleek]

Oh!

I'm literally looking at a website now that's telling me M... and it's for SC2!

Thanks for the tip about hovering over the icons.

 

[just Scott]

what i don't see is where Toss have the advantage late game.. Terran just need ghosts or vikings surely?

Upgraded zealots with charge are really really really good against MMM late game. Early game not so much because you don't have nearly enough, but late game zealot + storm + immortal is good against MMM, but you need 3 bases to do it. Also, terrans don't get ghosts enough so storm kills MMM too. EMP is weakest against zealots too since they only have 50 shields so EMP only does 50 damage. But I feel if terran got more ghosts and EMP'd more then protoss wouldn't have an advantage late game anymore, since EMP is a much better spell than storm in TvP. EMP does 100 damage to all units in the radius instantly, storm does 80 damage over time and can be dodged of course.

I might be silly here but I can't get build shortcuts to work, for example I select my Terran Barracks and press 'M' but Marines aren't built?

All the shortcuts I find on the net suggest that to be the correct key - any help?

This isn't a Broodwar thread.

 

[Indie]

Upgraded zealots with charge are really really really good against MMM late game. Early game not so much because you don't have nearly enough, but late game zealot + storm + immortal is good against MMM, but you need 3 bases to do it. Also, terrans don't get ghosts enough so storm kills MMM too. EMP is weakest against zealots too since they only have 50 shields so EMP only does 50 damage. But I feel if terran got more ghosts and EMP'd more then protoss wouldn't have an advantage late game anymore, since EMP is a much better spell than storm in TvP. EMP does 100 damage to all units in the radius instantly, storm does 80 damage over time and can be dodged of course.

ahh i see!

Yeah i can see what you mean about graded zlots!, but i still think if you mix in 2-3 ghosts, emp will just rip through anything protoss.

I'd imagin feedback be much more effective than storm, especially vs Medivacs.. I've seen Kar's feedbacks and their sh** hot! hes like a machine!

 

[Nerusy]

Upgraded zealots with charge are really really really good against MMM late game. Early game not so much because you don't have nearly enough, but late game zealot + storm + immortal is good against MMM, but you need 3 bases to do it. Also, terrans don't get ghosts enough so storm kills MMM too. EMP is weakest against zealots too since they only have 50 shields so EMP only does 50 damage. But I feel if terran got more ghosts and EMP'd more then protoss wouldn't have an advantage late game anymore, since EMP is a much better spell than storm in TvP. EMP does 100 damage to all units in the radius instantly, storm does 80 damage over time and can be dodged of course.

You make it sound so unfair, 100 shields, you can emp all day long its not going to kill anybody, while storm does damage, don't forget main dps of mm ball are 55 hp marine and 2 storms on them and there's no escaping add feedbrack on medivaks and mmm doesn't stand a chance.

Also feedback outranges emp just so ghosts with good micro should not be a problem.

You guys keep saying cc is unnecessary cheap and easy to get but if terrans don't get it, early zeaot + stalker can take out early mm ball so easy, so easy without cc.

And that game Kar, I think that was fantastic play on terran side and very poor play on the toss side, first he didn't use his pylons to see his whole base, therefore its his fault for allowing that proxy factory, then he pulls his whole army from the front door, he could have at least forcefielded the ramp if he was going to move his all army from the ramp

You can not say cc too effective just because the protoss played really badly.

Also Indie you say toss ball is harder to micro, thats not what I thought when I played them, first thing that I thought was, jees how easy is that and a bit overpowered with just how effective the forcefields are. Point is toss ball is not harder to control then terran ball

Actually now that I think about it, what is hard to micro in this game, it is a game afterall. I can't think on top of my head what is hard to micro, its all pretty straight forward hot key and click

 

[feedtheram]

i am so so bad at this game. Never played original Starcraft so not aware of many of the units but am getting used to it.

I so far have won 2 lost 13 or so. Problem is i seem to lose to a different tactic each time. Then the next game i take that into consideration and BAM! new rush tactic beats me again. I think i need to get better at scouting as at present i never know what to go for and just end up trying a mix of units.

I should really play AI as i dont have a true understanding of the enemy units and have only ever played Terran.

Still finding it fun though.

 

[Indie]

You make it sound so unfair, 100 shields, you can emp all day long its not going to kill anybody, while storm does damage, don't forget main dps of mm ball are 55 hp marine and 2 storms on them and there's no escaping add feedbrack on medivaks and mmm doesn't stand a chance.

Also feedback outranges emp just so ghosts with good micro should not be a problem.

You guys keep saying cc is unnecessary cheap and easy to get but if terrans don't get it, early zeaot + stalker can take out early mm ball so easy, so easy without cc.

And that game Kar, I think that was fantastic play on terran side and very poor play on the toss side, first he didn't use his pylons to see his whole base, therefore its his fault for allowing that proxy factory, then he pulls his whole army from the front door, he could have at least forcefielded the ramp if he was going to move his all army from the ramp

You can not say cc too effective just because the protoss played really badly.

Also Indie you say toss ball is harder to micro, thats not what I thought when I played them, first thing that I thought was, jees how easy is that and a bit overpowered with just how effective the forcefields are. Point is toss ball is not harder to control then terran ball

Actually now that I think about it, what is hard to micro in this game, it is a game afterall. I can't think on top of my head what is hard to micro, its all pretty straight forward hot key and click

Well.. nail on the head in your own words.. 2 storms AND FB on the medivacs, i'd like to see micro that impressive, not to mention Terran can move their units out of storm, reducing the storm damage.
Add your GS and FF too btw..

Compare that to Terrans.. EMP, its a bit tricky, but no where near as hard as doing GS/FF/PS/FB at the same time... i suppose we have to deploy tanks and micro out of the storms, but it really is much easier compared to Toss.
Stim is no brainer.

If you want to know whats hard to micro, then try muta or lings.
Its a shame mutas arent as strong as they used to be.
I remeber when Terran M&M micro was sexy. especially when lurkers were involved
Shielded marine decoy, sooo nice!

 

[kar]

ahh i see!

Yeah i can see what you mean about graded zlots!, but i still think if you mix in 2-3 ghosts, emp will just rip through anything protoss.

I'd imagin feedback be much more effective than storm, especially vs Medivacs.. I've seen Kar's feedbacks and their sh** hot! hes like a machine!

I sometimes get a bit too eager with the feedbacks when I should storm. See the game I lost against Nex20 for an example =]

Also feedback outranges emp just so ghosts with good micro should not be a problem.

It doesn't. EMP is range 10, Feedback range 9.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/High_Templar
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Ghost

 

[just Scott]

You make it sound so unfair, 100 shields, you can emp all day long its not going to kill anybody, while storm does damage, don't forget main dps of mm ball are 55 hp marine and 2 storms on them and there's no escaping add feedbrack on medivaks and mmm doesn't stand a chance.

Also feedback outranges emp just so ghosts with good micro should not be a problem.

You guys keep saying cc is unnecessary cheap and easy to get but if terrans don't get it, early zeaot + stalker can take out early mm ball so easy, so easy without cc.

And that game Kar, I think that was fantastic play on terran side and very poor play on the toss side, first he didn't use his pylons to see his whole base, therefore its his fault for allowing that proxy factory, then he pulls his whole army from the front door, he could have at least forcefielded the ramp if he was going to move his all army from the ramp

You can not say cc too effective just because the protoss played really badly.

Also Indie you say toss ball is harder to micro, thats not what I thought when I played them, first thing that I thought was, jees how easy is that and a bit overpowered with just how effective the forcefields are. Point is toss ball is not harder to control then terran ball

Actually now that I think about it, what is hard to micro in this game, it is a game afterall. I can't think on top of my head what is hard to micro, its all pretty straight forward hot key and click

EMP has a range of 10. Feedback has a range of 9. Feedback works on 1 ghost, EMP can work on about 5 high templar. EMP can't be dodged and does guaranteed damage, which can only heal when outside of battle. Storm does less damage, can be dodged and your units can be healed in the middle of the battle. If the protoss player feedbacks the medivacs then he won't have enough energy for many storms. Not to mention feedbacking a ghost is very hard, you have to click on a unit the size of a marine, usually clustered within a huge ball. The only thing storm has going for it is that it actually kills things.

Come on, from a purely objective viewpoint, EMP is more deadly than storm. Let's leave it to the zerg players to decide then lol.

 

[Nerusy]

Well since emp is aoe, the edge of the circle does have 10 range but then ht's can dodge it. If you aim emp right on top of the ht then ht can feedback the ghost before ghost emps ht

Storm is more deadly since it actually kills units

Do you use stroms, you don't need many to kill off all marines. nobody has an absolute advantage.

My point is its fair and equal, its you guys who try to argue that terran easier and overpowered So just keep it in mind, I don't want all of this, I just have to react when I hear something that I think is wrong and brings more flame to the "terrans are ass****" hysteria.

 

[just Scott]

Well since emp is aoe, the edge of the circle does have 10 range but then ht's can dodge it. If you aim emp right on top of the ht then ht can feedback the ghost before ghost emps ht

Storm is more deadly since it actually kills units

No the range 10 is the distance the ghost can be before he fires it. So a ghost can theoretically EMP a high templar before the HT can get in range to feedback it. The EMP is instant actually, you can see the EMP for a split second but I'm pretty sure it's not a projectile that can be dodged like a seeker missile, but I could be wrong. The radius is what you're talking about, and the EMP has a radius of 2. Storm has a radius of 1.5 so it hits less things too.

 

[kar]

No the range 10 is the distance the ghost can be before he fires it. So a ghost can theoretically EMP a high templar before the HT can get in range to feedback it. The EMP is instant actually, you can see the EMP for a split second but I'm pretty sure it's not a projectile that can be dodged like a seeker missile, but I could be wrong. The radius is what you're talking about, and the EMP has a radius of 2. Storm has a radius of 1.5 so it hits less things too.

It's instant effect. I prefer the old science vessel emp with it's little missile. That was cool. Actually I wish science veseels were in sc2, I loved them in the campaign!

Nerusy, I don't think, in the main, Terran are overpowered (vs protoss anyway), but the marauder is. Possibly the mule as well. But some stuff should be broken and cool. Unfortunately you have like range 10 emp, range 10 vikings range 12 tanks, and this uber 100/25 wrecking machine that either hard or soft counters every ground unit in the game and whose odour alone is enough to blow down nexii, hatcheries and ccs.

Fix conc shell, nerf armoured damage slightly, and the PvT game is fine. Terran will still be able to pull off bs with ravens and banshees and ghosts, but it will require a slightly more complicated unit mix and some more unit control than it currently does.

Nerf zealot build time, or nerf templar cost, or buff stim research speed to compensate. Whatever, I don't care. I just want to enter the mid game against a comparable opponent on even terms if I don't make a mistake. And it's one ridiculous unit that prevents that. Like, seriously, what purpose does conc shell serve in the game? Why should marauders be so untouchable early on, you have reapers for early harass, and midgame stim means zealots and even chargelots can barely get in range of a semi competently controlled mmm ball.

 

[just Scott]

Well since emp is aoe, the edge of the circle does have 10 range but then ht's can dodge it. If you aim emp right on top of the ht then ht can feedback the ghost before ghost emps ht

Storm is more deadly since it actually kills units

Do you use stroms, you don't need many to kill off all marines. nobody has an absolute advantage.

My point is its fair and equal, its you guys who try to argue that terran easier and overpowered So just keep it in mind, I don't want all of this, I just have to react when I hear something that I think is wrong and brings more flame to the "terrans are ass****" hysteria.

I agree it's pretty fair and equal, but what I'm saying is that I think EMP is a stronger spell than storm. I'm not saying EMP is overpowered. I think terran should use EMP more because it's so damn good.

 

[Nerusy]

I donno guys when I try to emp good toss they manage to feedback me.

Why change it if pvt is fine as it is atm, we've been through marauder debate, did you not hear anything I said? And now you jump on mules, you do know mule = 2 workers that bring minerals back not in 2x5 per go but 30 per 3xtimes the normal scv time.

So basically mule is just 2 extra workers at all times unless you wan to trade it for supply depo drop or scan. You can chrono boost 2 workers that permanently are there until killed to mine or you have the option to spend cb on army/research.
How is 2 extra workers for each orbital command at all times unless you want to trade it for supply/scan is imbalanced?

now you go on about terrans would need to play better, really? using ravens againt feedback? yeah I do use ravens, it doesn't require more skills or smarter tactics but when ht's come into play its rather useless and you still need to have the core army which is mmm, just toss ball consists of core army. Besides pdd only is good against stalkers, its zealots usually that kill off the mm.

Also terrans do use different tactic but on the ladder I see toss doing same old tactic without ever scouting me, toss ball with collosi, and I presume against you terrans do the same old mmm ball with ghosts, right? its just what masses do.

You say terrans don't put much effert on the ladder, tosses don't put much effort on the ladder, I mean 30 apm average is all you need for toss ball with collosi.

 

[just Scott]

I donno guys when I try to emp good toss they manage to feedback me.

EMP works best when it's more of a surprise attack. Storm is good mid and late battle to finish things off because it's absolutely useless vs marauders with medivac support, so you need to weaken the marauders first for storm to work properly. EMP works best at the very beginning of the battle to do immediate damage to shields that won't be there late battle and to take out any high templar that might be clustered.

btw if you're don't have enough energy for an EMP, Snipe 1 shots HTs. I don't see snipe used that much at all.