UPS

FireShadow

FireShadow

FireShadow

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Joined
6 Jun 2008
Posts
117
up until recently I have done all my important work on a laptop
always plugged in to the mains
the battery acts as an UPS
laptop power supplies seem to be very reliable in the face of dirty mains

my last desktop was damaged when workmen from next door used a big power tool and it spiked the mains in my house - fried the hd as well as mobo

now I am considering using a desktop with a 850W power supply
but not happy about lack of UPS

what kind of UPS can I use to protect something this power hungry?
or failing a UPS what can I do to protect from serious mains spikes etc?
 
that looks good

the typical UPS available don't have enough oomph:

biggest UPS at overclockers:
- Output Power Capacity 500 Watts / 750 VA

if you run furmark the UPS couldn't deliver enough power?
 
What are the specs of your system that the UPS will be attached to?

I have This one and use it with an i5 750 @ 4.1GHz, ATI HD5850, 4GB ram, 1 SSD, 3 HDDs, a couple TV cards etc on a Corsair vx450w.
 
FireShadow said:
let's say that it needs a 850W PSU ...
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I would think that your system at full load would not be drawing even half of what your PSU can supply, so really what you need is to cover the full load of what your system draws with some headroom, hence why I link to that APC UPS in my previous post...

If you want to cover the full possible power draw of your PSU, then you would need to be looking at something like the APC Smart-UPS 1500VA ...
 
FireShadow said:
let's say that it needs a 850W PSU ...
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Your computer uses typically 200 watts. Which means a 350 watt supply would be sufficient. Since a UPS battery fails so quickly - degrades in three years - then the UPS should be even larger to compensate for degradation. Maybe 500 wats.

That UPS does not protect from spike and surges. Protection is standard inside all computer power supplies as even required in Intel ATX standards (and other international design standards). Recommended solutoins connect your computer directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. And (from a surge perspective) take almost forever to switch to batteries.

For example, 300 consecutive surges could pass through the UPS before the UPS even started to switch from AC mains to battery power.

A supply inside a computer should be more robust than one inside a UPS. If a surge is so large as to blow through a computer's supply, then it also and easily blew through the UPS.

And finally, where are numbers from that UPS that lists protection from each type of surge? If a UPS is recommended for spike protection, then that recommendation cites which specification numbers are relevant.
 
That UPS does not protect from spike and surges.
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Not quite sure which UPS you are referring to, but the 2 APC UPS's I linked to certainly gives protection against "spike and surges"...

See next to "Power conditioning," Here and Here...
 
jbloggs said:
Not quite sure which UPS you are referring to, but the 2 APC UPS's I linked to certainly gives protection against "spike and surges"...
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Good. Post numbers that claim protection. Posting a sales brochure says nothing about protection or your credibility. Cite the number and say why that number is relevant.

Valid claims only exist in numbers Subjective claim in a sales brochure is classic propaganda. Only those who learn from facts and numbers post a number AND say why that number is relevant. Where is the number? Neither of your citations make those protection claims. Why do you not cite the relevant number?

View the only number for protection - 320 joules. That means it uses maybe 110 joules and never more than 210 joules during a surge. Near zero. You tell me. How do a hundred joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules?

Near zero protection is called 100% protection when one is only told what to think. Those who learn before recommending see near zero joules. Just enough above zero so that a sales brochure can claim 100% protection.

Those numbers say near zero surge protection. That is effective protection? No. So where is this number that claims protection? Still not provided? Where is this required spike protection number? And good luck searching for it.
 
westom: UPS's save hardware from surges, fact. We had a lightning strike near here a few years back and it killed a bunch of stuff in the house. But the computers were protected with APC Back-UPS 650's and those never suffered any damage. Although one of the UPS's did blow its fuse and required RMA'ing afterwards - but that didn't matter as it had done its job in saving the PC.
 
A proper UPS will always provide power from the batteries and the mains power will trickle charge the battery. This is why the batteries only last about 3 years.
 
westom said:
Good. Post numbers that claim protection. Posting a sales brochure says nothing about protection or your credibility. Cite the number and say why that number is relevant.

Valid claims only exist in numbers Subjective claim in a sales brochure is classic propaganda. Only those who learn from facts and numbers post a number AND say why that number is relevant. Where is the number? Neither of your citations make those protection claims. Why do you not cite the relevant number?

View the only number for protection - 320 joules. That means it uses maybe 110 joules and never more than 210 joules during a surge. Near zero. You tell me. How do a hundred joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules?

Near zero protection is called 100% protection when one is only told what to think. Those who learn before recommending see near zero joules. Just enough above zero so that a sales brochure can claim 100% protection.

Those numbers say near zero surge protection. That is effective protection? No. So where is this number that claims protection? Still not provided? Where is this required spike protection number? And good luck searching for it.
Click to expand...

Pity you can't see the wood for the trees! :p
 
westom said:
Good. Post numbers that claim protection. Posting a sales brochure says nothing about protection or your credibility. Cite the number and say why that number is relevant.

Valid claims only exist in numbers Subjective claim in a sales brochure is classic propaganda. Only those who learn from facts and numbers post a number AND say why that number is relevant. Where is the number? Neither of your citations make those protection claims. Why do you not cite the relevant number?

View the only number for protection - 320 joules. That means it uses maybe 110 joules and never more than 210 joules during a surge. Near zero. You tell me. How do a hundred joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules?

Near zero protection is called 100% protection when one is only told what to think. Those who learn before recommending see near zero joules. Just enough above zero so that a sales brochure can claim 100% protection.

Those numbers say near zero surge protection. That is effective protection? No. So where is this number that claims protection? Still not provided? Where is this required spike protection number? And good luck searching for it.
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Am I the only one that cant make sense of this?

To be honest surge protectors are pretty useless, if you want some real protection then get a UPS, much better.
 
Trifid said:
A proper UPS will always provide power from the batteries and the mains power will trickle charge the battery. This is why the batteries only last about 3 years.
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My last APC Back-UPS 650VA battery lasted 10 years. I replaced it a few months ago - good as new again.

The UPS you describe are called "On-line UPS", APC usually calls theirs the "Smart UPS" range. These type of UPS's do eat batteries a lot quicker.
 
NathanE said:
westom: UPS's save hardware from surges, fact. We had a lightning strike near here a few years back and it killed a bunch of stuff in the house. But the computers were protected with APC Back-UPS 650's and those never suffered any damage.
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Which is exactly how surges work. Once inside a building, then a surge hunts for earth destructively via appliances. Some are damaged. Others are not. Once inside, nothing (no UPS, no power strip protector) averts that hunt. Your surge would have found and damaged the same appliances with or without any UPS.

So everything not on a UPS was damage? Must be for your logic to work. Also destroyed a dishwasher, furnace, RCDs, dimmer switches, fire protection system, doorbell, and all telephone appliances? Why not? Why did things without a UPS survive? According to your logic, everything not on a UPS must be damaged. Or do you also have an invisible UPS other appliances?

Of course not. The surge selected which appliances to damage. A surge hunts for and finds better paths to earth via only some appliances. Sometimes the TV is unhurt while an adjacent DVR or VCR is destroyed. Only some appliances were damaged because the homeowner installed no effective protection. Damage directly traceable to a homeowner who let surge energy hunt inside the building.

UPS did exactly what its manufacturer specs said it would do. Nothing.

Only those told what to think will recommend that UPS. Then post nasty replies when they cannot even provide a manufacturer spec. Where does APC list protection from each type of surge. jbloggs posts nasty because even APC does not claim that protection. Because he made claims he cannot support. Where are the numbers? A hundred joules will magically make a 'hundreds of thousands of joules' surge just disappear?

A plug-in UPS does not claim to provide surge protection. Same appliances were damaged with or without that UPS. Same appliances were undamaged because an invisible UPS protected them? Nonsense. But so many know only what advertising orders them to believe. Do not demand facts and numbers.

Where is this UPS spec numbers that claim protection? Does not exist. Even the manufacturer will not make that protection claim. What protects appliances? Protection already designed into every appliance. Internal protection that is not overwhelmed when the informed homeowner spends tens or 100 times less money to earth only one protector.

So many who know by posting nasty. Where is the post for protection based in facts and numbers? They cannot post what does not exist. Nasty is what they understand.
 
Belkin sells power strips with a £50,000 guarantee that no connected equipment will suffer surge damage. Go figure.

PS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector
Joules – This number defines how much energy the surge protector can absorb without failure. A higher number indicates longer life expectancy because the device will divert more energy elsewhere and will absorb less energy. More joules conducting the same surge current means a reduced clamping voltage. Its often said that lower joule ratings is undersized protection since harmful spikes are significantly larger than this. Better protectors exceed 1000 joules and 40,000 amperes. If properly installed, for every joule absorbed by a protector, another 4 or 30 joules may be dissipated harmlessly into ground.

The joule is a common misleading parameter for gauging surge protectors. Any ampere and voltage combination can occur in time, but surges commonly occur for microseconds to nanoseconds, and experimentally modeled surge energy has been far under 100 Joules.[3] Well designed surge protectors should not rely on MOVs to absorb surge energy but more to survive the process of redirecting it. A MOV should blow gracefully, like a fuse, while diverting most of the surge energy to ground thus sacrificing itself, if needed, to protect equipment plugged into the surge protector. As energy in a MOV is stored as potential energy and if released as kinetic energy, a lower joule rating reduces fire and explosion hazards.
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Bubba said:
To be honest surge protectors are pretty useless, if you want some real protection then get a UPS, much better.
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Why does BT not use what you have posted? Because BT's switching computers, connected to wires all over town, suffer at least 100 surges with each thunderstorm.

How often is your town without phone service for four days while they replace their computer? Never. BT uses the only protection that has been proven effective for over 100 years. That means a protector that costs tens of times less money is located within meters of earth ground. And that means the protector is up to 50 meters distant from electronics. Separation is also important for protection.

Only most easily deceived consumers will buy a UPS because it will magically block a surge. How does that UPS stop what 3 kilometers of sky could not? It doesn't. Why does it list 320 joules - as close to zero as possible. Well 300 joules is not zero. APC, et al promote myths to the most easily deceived consumers. Therefore a near zero protector circuit is also 100% protection to the least informed.

Why does British Telephone not use that UPS? BT needs protection. And BT does not want to spend tens or 100 times more money on myths promoted only by hearsay.

Where is the APC spec numbers that list protection from each type of surge? They are not selling to the educated. They are selling hearsay and urban myths to the naive. That UPS only has one function. To provide temporary and dirty electricity during a blackout.

Bubba. It is this simple. If that UPS does surge protection, then you can post each number that says so ... and explain why that number is relevant. You cannot. No such numbers exist. Manufacturer says it is zero surge protection. Then promotes it as 100% surge protection to those most easily deceived.

Where are the spec numbers? Why do those whose numbers said near zero protection then post insulting replies? Informed consumers learn the numbers, spend tens of times less money on a well proven solution, and need not be nasty.
 
That's all an UPS does though. It sends the surge to ground and acts as a relatively cheap bodyguard for the attached equipment. Same as a £10 surge protector power strip...

BT would rather their ~£20,000 UPS (and yes, they DO have UPS's, in EVERY exchange - that's why your phoneline still works during a power outage) blew its top rather during a lightning strike rather than taking out all their far far more expensive telephony and DSLAM equipment.

This isn't about consumers and businesses being "tricked" by APC into buying something that is just a paperweight. UPS's provide real returns on investment. The amount of times my UPS has saved me during a power cut and given me a chance to save my work and shut down... I've lost count.
 
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