If only our government was as honest

[sanaxe1]

No, but then we do not live in Italy.

If you going into a Chinese restaurant then in all likelihood you could get Fish and Chips (or at least fried chicken.)

The point being if you want Chinese you go to a Chinese restaurant if you want Italian you go to a Italian restaurant. For example if your Muslim then surely it would make sense to go to another Muslim country as they have all the same customs.
If you choose somewhere like the UK its because it offers you benefits of higher wages and a better standard of living, then i think its acceptable that if you chose somewhere based on these aspects and not on the customs and the social implication it has on you then you have to make concessions like learning the home nations language. If you want the benefits of living in said country then you have to give something back , Now of course you don't have to give up all of your culture but again if Clashes with the culture of the home nation then you will have to concede this or you are perfectly free to move to another country where they do allow it.

When i was in Thailand i went to a temple and was told to wear long shorts/trousers as it was disrespectful in their culture .. you know what i did.. i put some trousers on.

 

[Castiel]

The point being if you want Chinese you go to a Chinese restaurant if you want Italian you go to a Italian restaurant. So if your Muslim then surely it would make sense to go to another Muslim country they have all the same customs. if you choose somewhere like the UK its because it offers you benefits of higher wages better standard of living then i think its acceptable that if you chose somewhere based on these aspects then you have to make concessions if thats the language you speak , the way you dress then so be it. When i was in thailand i went to a temple and was told to wear long shorts/trousers as it was disrespectful in there culture .. you know what i did.. i put some trousers on.

Absolutely, but did you also wear those same garment the entire time you were in Thailand. I doubt it.

You are asking people to remove any aspect of their heritage in their everyday lives just to satisfy your own identity crisis. We do not live in such a society, we are not Saudi Arabia or China where a specific cultural or religious norm is the only accepted way of life.

Frankly I wouldn't want to live in such a society either.

 

[sanaxe1]

Absolutely, but did you also wear those same garment the entire time you were in Thailand. I doubt it.

You are asking people to remove any aspect of their heritage in their everyday lives just to satisfy your own identity crisis. We do not live in such a society, we are not Saudi Arabia or China where a specific cultural or religious norm is the only accepted way of life.

Frankly I wouldn't want to live in such a society either.

I'm not saying they have to change all of them as different cultures can have a positive effect but if their is a negative clash of cultures for example the hotly debated Burkas then surely as it goes against our culture then the home culture wins by majority.

 

[Danthus]

We have a law of the land and that is not Sharia law.

 

[Killerkebab]

Does it go against our culture, or does it go against your idea of what our culture is?

Notice the same problem Castiel has been mentioning is coming up again, namely that we ask immigrants to do things such as "integrate", "assimilate", and accept "our" culture at the expense of "their" culture without ever defining any of these aspects.

 

[EvilDreams]

In contemporary times, "our" culture seems to be just absorbing american culture TBH.

If they can speak the host country's language and follow its laws, I don't see the problem. As long as they're not sending all their money home to another country....but that's a different thread.

However, on a long enough timeline it's still never going to work. There are some cultures that can live side by side, but there are also some that are just incompatible.

 

[Viper²]

Multiculturalism has always worked in the past.. apart from in Nazi Germany. There has always been multi-religious and multi-cultural immigration in Europe for centuries.

It tells you more about todays society more than anything, how people object to immigration on religious or cultural grounds. How many of those objectors in this country would prevent a White Christian family from America moving to the UK?

 

[Tigjaw]

Maybe by the 23/24 century once mankind finally shrugs of the shackles of religious belief.

Oh yeah right, because atheists are never racist or aggressive toward other atheists...

Perhaps the problem lies in people with your point of view?

 

[Castiel]

Does it go against our culture, or does it go against your idea of what our culture is?

Notice the same problem Castiel has been mentioning is coming up again, namely that we ask immigrants to do things such as "integrate", "assimilate", and accept "our" culture at the expense of "their" culture without ever defining any of these aspects.

Exactly, there is not enough definition of our own culture in which to make these kind of judgements on an adhoc basis.

Burka's for example are not contrary to our culture (assuming a western European Christian based definition), forcing women to wear them is and that is what should be addressed, not banning them entirely.

Should we require economic immigrants to speak or a least be learning to speak English, well I would say yes, that is a reasonable request, as is following the legal system enshrined in this country and not importing a pseudo-religious legal system which is contrary to our own. Two perfectly reasonable and no discriminatory requirements.

However, forcing people to dress like us, observe religion like us, eat like us, or remove any reference to their own heritage and culture is frankly offensive and repugnant and as contrary to our own culture as aspects of Sharia are.

 

[Danthus]

If they can speak English and follow the law of the country they're in, I don't see the problem. As long as they're not sending all their money home to another country....but that's a different thread.

But we now have schools making provision for pupils who do not speak English, it is crazy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...-pupils-speak-English-as-second-language.html

Some one-in-six pupils in primary schools speak another language at home, it was disclosed, double the rate a decade ago.
In parts of inner-London, numbers now exceed three-quarters.

The disclosure – in new figures published by the Department for Education – follows claims that a surge in pupils with relatively poor English is putting a strain on state schools as teachers struggle to cater for multiple languages in the classroom.

Tell me, should the onus be on the school to provide for non English speaking pupils?

The government spends a sum of money on printing information for multiple languages, why, we are an English speaking nation!

 

[nHook]

The references to the Quran only state that women should dress in a modest manner. The only reference specifically to the Hijab or Khimar as it is known in the Quran is in reference to covering their Bosom. Which is kind of understandable.

Remember that Islam came after the culture it is based upon and the Hijab and traditions like it pre-date Islam by several centuries.

Okay, thanks for enlightening me.

 

[Castiel]

But we now have schools making provision for pupils who do not speak English, it is crazy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...-pupils-speak-English-as-second-language.html



Tell me, should the onus be on the school to provide for non English speaking pupils?

The governments spends a sum of money on printing information for multiple languages, why, we are an English speaking nation!

Schools should in these cases teach those children to speak English and the authorities should back this up with outreach education to teach the Parents of these children to speak English to a standard that they are able to communicate effectively.

As for future economic immigration then a level of English sufficient for effective communication should be a requirement of entry.

Until those kind of programmes begin to have an impact then multi-language access to public services should be maintained.

Let's have a positive attitude to these problems instead of a negative one.

 

[Danthus]

Schools should in these cases teach those children to speak English and the authorities should back this up with outreach education to teach the Parents of these children to speak English to a standard that they are able to communicate effectively.

As for future economic immigration then a level of English sufficient for effective communication should be a requirement of entry.

Until those kind of programmes begin to have an impact then multi-language access to public services should be maintained.

Let's have a positive attitude to these problems instead of a negative one.

It is all very well saying have a positive outlook but you can not pretend there are not negative effects.

How many criminal investigations help up because of the need for an interpreter?

 

[sanaxe1]

Schools should in these cases teach those children to speak English and the authorities should back this up with outreach education to teach the Parents of these children to speak English to a standard that they are able to communicate effectively.

As for future economic immigration then a level of English sufficient for effective communication should be a requirement of entry.

Until those kind of programmes begin to have an impact then multi-language access to public services should be maintained.

Let's have a positive attitude to these problems instead of a negative one.

I believe people would be much more accepting of immigrants if they had a good grasp of the English language as it shows they have at least made a effort. Also i think when your in a place and people are speaking in a different language you become abit paranoid as to what they are saying , You might make eye contact with them and wonder are they talking about you. And you are always weary of what you do not know. So i think being able to speak the English language is a must for entry.

 

[Castiel]

It is all very well saying have a positive outlook but you can not pretend there are not negative effects.

How many criminal investigations help up because of the need for an interpreter?

That is beside the point, instead of ignoring the problem or hiding it under a sheen of supposed racism. Deal with it in a positive way. The problems may be negative, but the solutions need not be.

Teach those immigrants English, teach the children in our schools and in turn the adults. If we need interpreters for the time being, so be it, supply them.

The problem is that instead of stating the obvious and blaming ethnic groups, we should actually begin to do something positive to solve the problem.

 

[Castiel]

I believe people would be much more accepting of immigrants if they had a good grasp of the English language as it shows they have at least made a effort. Also i think when your in a place and people are speaking in a different language you become abit paranoid as to what they are saying , You might make eye contact with them and wonder are they talking about you. And you are always weary of what you do not know. So i think being able to speak the English language is a must for entry.

I agree, but we must address the people who are already here who cannot.

Also it is not so simple when discussing asylum seekers who for whatever reason fled their own country and arrive without having the facilities to learn prior to arrival. What do we do, sent them back regardless.

 

[Danthus]

I agree, but we must address the people who are already here who cannot.

Also it is not so simple when discussing asylum seekers who for whatever reason fled their own country and arrive without having the facilities to learn prior to arrival. What do we do, sent them back regardless.

Why do so many asylum seekers end up in the UK, lets be honest we are not the first safe heaven you come to when leaving North Africa or the Middle East.

 

[badcompany]

B-E-N-E-F-I-T-S

the promise of a house and an income if you breed like a rabbit.

 

[Castiel]

Why do so many asylum seekers end up in the UK, lets be honest we are not the first safe heaven you come to when leaving North Africa or the Middle East.

Indeed, but we are ideologically more acceptable to many of them, especially those from post-colonial countries such as Zimbabwe or places where we had a large influence.

France, Italy and Spain have similar problems to us.

But again, complaining about it isn't solving anything, if we spent as much time and energy solving these problems as we do complaining about them then we would not be in such a predicament.

 

[EvilDreams]

I believe people would be much more accepting of immigrants if they had a good grasp of the English language as it shows they have at least made a effort.

Am I alone in finding that sentence a little ironic?